Metroidz

Australian Skial God
Contributor
Here are some counter arguments I have encountered.

Have you heard that children were separated from their parents under Obama & Clinton? Then, you need a little Facts vs Myths lesson. Michelle Martin, PhD Cal State Fullerton summed up the most important FACTS:

There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:

Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn’t have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-r...nload?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low

Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/us/meatpackers-profits-hinge-on-pool-of-immigrant-labor.html

Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/

Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document...s-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56

Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...essions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/

Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hildren-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html

Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obta...-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody

Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...child-separations-at-border-may-proceed-judge

Who is Karen Brown anyways? That's a pretty generic name, what are her credentials for this post?
 

chuckwagon

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Who is Karen Brown anyways? That's a pretty generic name, what are her credentials for this post?
Some that cited sources to support her argument. NY Times, UK Independent, NPR, Politifact, and the US Government website among others.
 
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chuckwagon

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
VDK5SHf_d.jpg
 

chuckwagon

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Imgur purposefully makes you jump through hoops to hotlink images so people will visit their website and view their ads.
Understandable, but with every other site I can paste the image into the post and it just works.

Imgur is the image hosting site that I have successfully used in the past. If someone has a better alternative, please let me know, I will update.

On topic:
Comparing neo-Nazis to Republicans is not hyperbole https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...jones-to-drop-out_us_5b3e0e6ce4b05127ccef8ccb
 

DaivdBaekr

Moderator
Contributor
For imgur links if you wait a few moments and then right click -> open image in new tab, you can get a working image link there. In general anything that doesn't end in a .jpg/.png/etc file extension won't work.
 

Cream Tea

Epic Skial Regular
Legendary Mapper
For imgur links if you wait a few moments and then right click -> open image in new tab, you can get a working image link there. In general anything that doesn't end in a .jpg/.png/etc file extension won't work.

isn't this common internet knowledge
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
Understandable, but with every other site I can paste the image into the post and it just works.

Imgur is the image hosting site that I have successfully used in the past. If someone has a better alternative, please let me know, I will update.

On topic:
Comparing neo-Nazis to Republicans is not hyperbole https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...jones-to-drop-out_us_5b3e0e6ce4b05127ccef8ccb

Cool. There are a lot of Democrats with ties to Farrakhan. Do I get to declare every single democrat anti-semitic now? Both parties do the same shit, and the reason I said I strayed from hyperbole is because when you defend one party for doing the same actions that you criticize the other party for, it comes across disingenuous. Here's a better way to present that article: "There are legitimate neo-nazis in the Republican Party" instead of again, inferring that every single Republican is a neo-nazi.

Just for context, here's Ellison, the DNC vice chair, blatantly lying about having a personal meeting with loud anti-semitic Louis Farrakhan: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...akhan-no-relationship/?utm_term=.f8fc155bcf06

Maxine Waters, greeting Farrakhan with open arms:

Not defending the idiot neo-nazi, but my point is, when you limit it all to one party, you almost defend actions like the above.

Addendum:
If you don't know Farrakhan, you can read up on his lovely stances here: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...-denounce-louis-farrakhans-anti-semitism.html

Here's an article where the above says Hitler was a great man: https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/17/us/farrakhan-again-describes-hitler-as-a-very-great-man.html
 
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White Moose

Positively Inhumane Poster
this is simple
you cross the border illegally. it was your choice
you get deported. your consequence
you left children behind. your choice
enough said countries dont exist without borders and borders need protection.
its not my fault your dumbass crossed illegally and had kids. if anything youre the asshole for putting them through that

god bless america
 
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DaivdBaekr

Moderator
Contributor
"There are legitimate neo-nazis in the Republican Party" instead of again, inferring that every single Republican is a neo-nazi.
Voter base also consistently rejects them.

David Duke in 2016: 3%
Paul Nehlen in 2016: 15%
Patrick Little in 2018: 1.3%

Primarily because voters are concerned with more base needs like not getting taxed out of their homes more than FBI race-crime statistics and pol memes but also because their characters tend to bubble up over time. Usually hucksters (see:politician) or completely unhinged.
 
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S_O_C_K_S

Truly Feared Pyro
Contributor
this is simple
you cross the border illegally. it was your choice
you get deported. your consequence
you left children behind. your choice
enough said countries dont exist without borders and borders need protection.
its not my fault your dumbass crossed illegally and had kids. if anything youre the asshole for putting them through that

god bless america
Epic.....that's pretty much what I said in my original post. Great minds think alike!
 

chuckwagon

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Cool. There are a lot of Democrats with ties to Farrakhan. Do I get to declare every single democrat anti-semitic now? Both parties do the same shit, and the reason I said I strayed from hyperbole is because when you defend one party for doing the same actions that you criticize the other party for, it comes across disingenuous. Here's a better way to present that article: "There are legitimate neo-nazis in the Republican Party" instead of again, inferring that every single Republican is a neo-nazi.

Just for context, here's Ellison, the DNC vice chair, blatantly lying about having a personal meeting with loud anti-semitic Louis Farrakhan: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...akhan-no-relationship/?utm_term=.f8fc155bcf06

Maxine Waters, greeting Farrakhan with open arms:

Not defending the idiot neo-nazi, but my point is, when you limit it all to one party, you almost defend actions like the above.

Addendum:
If you don't know Farrakhan, you can read up on his lovely stances here: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...-denounce-louis-farrakhans-anti-semitism.html

Here's an article where the above says Hitler was a great man: https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/17/us/farrakhan-again-describes-hitler-as-a-very-great-man.html

I see we have moved on the whataboutism stage. I guess I will play along.

1. Farrakhan is trash. I denounce him and his beliefs. So do most democrats. We don't support hate.
2. What public office does Farrakhan hold? What policies are being put in place by him?
3. Keith Ellison has publicly denounced Farrakhan. If he really does secretly hold the same beliefs then he is trash and I will denounce him as well.
4. I have no idea about Maxine Waters, I have never heard any reports of antisemitism from her. I don't think that we should start turning a public hug into an endorsement of someone else's every single belief.
gettyimages-84316778_0-h2016.jpg



Now that that's out of the way, let's be clear on what we are talking about. We have the border situation that is getting compared to Nazism because of the policies that are being set forth. Children being taken away from parents, and people being held in detention camps, all Latino people. Cruel policies being leveraged against ethnically similar people. Then we have avowed neo-Nazis that are anti-Semitic but also have seemingly popped up in the last year in record numbers to run for public office. I wonder why that could be.

You brought up Farrakhan and I denounce his beliefs and policies of hate.

But you are defending Trump and his policies of hate.

VDK5SHf.jpg
 

chuckwagon

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
this is simple
you cross the border illegally. it was your choice
you get deported. your consequence
you left children behind. your choice
enough said countries dont exist without borders and borders need protection.
its not my fault your dumbass crossed illegally and had kids. if anything youre the asshole for putting them through that

god bless america
They were using this policy with everyone, including families seeking asylum which is *LEGAL* immigration.