MrLupin

Spectacularly Lethal Soldier
Contributor
Let me get this started by saying that I think Soldier's Meta in VSH is fine for now, but I believe that one secondary is very overpowered if used by good Trolldiers. That is the Mantreads.

Problem: Mantreads are like a side-grade for Gunboats, you can get more mobility in the air when Rocket Jumping at the cost of not protecting you at self-explosions as much as Gunboats does. The only problem with Mantreads is that if a Soldier is good or uses Liberty Launcher with Mantreads, that somewhat nullifies the downside of Mantreads, making it nearly like the Gunboats. When the Mantreads is used on a good Soldier along side with the Market Garden, it creates easy damage for said Soldier using the Mantreads + MG combo.

Solution: I propose two solutions to the Mantreads.
  1. We should nerf the Mantreads so that Health Packs do not give you much (around 50%-75% health per pack) when equipped. Another nerf no overheal from Medics when being pocketed while having the Mantreads on. This make sure that Trolldiers are not constantly grabbing health packs or relying on their Medics to nullify the cost of self-damage when Rocket Jumping.
  2. We should remove the Mantreads in this current meta for the time being until we can make a good nerf since it would force Soldiers to learn with Gunboats instead of relying on Mantreads, making the process more easier.
Conclusion: Yes, Mantreads are popular and are still being used but I believe that Mantreads are used for easy damage, especially with good players who can play Trolldier very well. So I suggest these proposed ideas for now.
 

Zeke Aileron

Gore-Spattered Heavy
Contributor
+1

However it would be better to just have it added into the Banlist of weapons, so if it was equipped, it'd auto-equip a Skial Gunboats weapon instead similar to how Rocket Jumper and Sticky Bomber swap to Stock cause of the VSH Plugin.
 
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MrLupin

Spectacularly Lethal Soldier
Contributor
+1

However it would be better to just have it added into the Banlist of weapons, so if it was equipped, it'd auto-equip a Skial Gunboats weapon instead similar to how Rocket Jumper and Sticky Bomber swap to Stock cause of the VSH Plugin.
I gotta agree Zeke. I think adding Mantreads to the banlist and replacing it and auto-equiping Skial Gunboats is a better idea than the nerf I had suggested.
 

Zeke Aileron

Gore-Spattered Heavy
Contributor
I gotta agree Zeke. I think adding Mantreads to the banlist and replacing it and auto-equiping Skial Gunboats is a better idea than the nerf I had suggested.

Yes, plus it would make alot of maps more bearable for Hale players since i know Military Area is an example of the Mantread spam, i absolutely love the map, but i highly dislike Mantreads and the map technically wasn't designed for Mantreads in mind either, the HP kits is good as is, the only stats that Gunboats needs on it is probably.

-25% less healing from health packs (attribute)

They can still technically jump around alot, but health packs would be a bit less for them overall with the time they take to respawn to the amount of health you'd get with the negative attribute on it.
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
other attributes than can be used with the potential of discourage Trolldiers:
  • reduced healing from all sources (to also discourage Medics from pocketing Trolldiers; not currently used)
  • overheal penalty on wearer (used by Fists of Steel or Razorback)

other options:
apply crits_become_minicrits to MG to reduce damage output of Trolldiers
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
+1 for a nerf, but -1 for the specific ideas.

I’m looking into a way to modify the push force and fall dmg resist for them currently.

Reducing their healing won’t work because then they’ll just hog more health packs, which just punishes the team.
Overheal penalty is a nerf but I doubt it’d do much.
Reducing the damage output isn’t as simple as an attribute since it’s custom formulas that handle %-dmg such as stabs and MGs.

Adding this weapon to the banlist seems highly unnecessary. The only weapons mainly on the list are there because they’re incredibly busted if they were allowed, such as the jumper weapons, the Natasha, and the cloak and dagger. I think reducing the amount of extra velocity plus removing the fall damage resist would be plenty of a rework.
 
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Italian Doctor

Gore-Spattered Heavy
Contributor
it's probably there because gardens barely do any damage, but god do i hate when the last people on red are all flying across the map and the hale can't get them, extending the wait time for next round
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
removing the fall damage resist would be plenty of a rework.
ironically, the fall damage resist is also a nerf to the Mantreads' stomping damage, being directly based off the damage the wearer would receive.

god do i hate when the last people on red are all flying across the map and the hale can't get them, extending the wait time for next round
this is why I think VSH should officially declare Hale the round's winner should time run out
 
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mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
this is why I think VSH should officially declare Hale the round's winner should time run out

Doesn’t work in practice, unfortunately. Hales learn to just run around and camp/hide for the round duration when this is enabled, and unless RED is buff as hell, there’s not much they can do about it.
 

mub

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
ironically, the fall damage resist is also a nerf to the Mantreads' stomping damage, being directly based off the damage the wearer would receive.

Stomp damage for manntreads is fixed at 1024. The fall damage changing doesn’t affect it whatsoever.
 

Skep

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
I personally don't understand why you guys want to nerf the Mantreads, knowing how it was nerfed originally it added a lot more blast damage on wearer, this made the mantreads be way less picked by newer players, but a good mantreads soldier that can manage his health, and if he is on a open map with healthpacks (unlike turret testing) can survive on his own, I get that some people just think they are publords with the mantreads and just jump away to healthpacks, but the bunny can abuse his broken ass range, and cbs has the arrows,and yes dealing with mantreads is annoying, but so are loose cannon demos, scouts that use the bonk, and hide until it recharges, dead ringer spies, cloak spies (that are just hiding),

In my opinion i -1 this