Declined [VSH] Nerf or Remove the Mantreads from VSH

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by MrLupin, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. MrLupin

    MrLupin Spectacularly Lethal Soldier Contributor

    Steam:
    Let me get this started by saying that I think Soldier's Meta in VSH is fine for now, but I believe that one secondary is very overpowered if used by good Trolldiers. That is the Mantreads.

    Problem: Mantreads are like a side-grade for Gunboats, you can get more mobility in the air when Rocket Jumping at the cost of not protecting you at self-explosions as much as Gunboats does. The only problem with Mantreads is that if a Soldier is good or uses Liberty Launcher with Mantreads, that somewhat nullifies the downside of Mantreads, making it nearly like the Gunboats. When the Mantreads is used on a good Soldier along side with the Market Garden, it creates easy damage for said Soldier using the Mantreads + MG combo.

    Solution: I propose two solutions to the Mantreads.
    1. We should nerf the Mantreads so that Health Packs do not give you much (around 50%-75% health per pack) when equipped. Another nerf no overheal from Medics when being pocketed while having the Mantreads on. This make sure that Trolldiers are not constantly grabbing health packs or relying on their Medics to nullify the cost of self-damage when Rocket Jumping.
    2. We should remove the Mantreads in this current meta for the time being until we can make a good nerf since it would force Soldiers to learn with Gunboats instead of relying on Mantreads, making the process more easier.
    Conclusion: Yes, Mantreads are popular and are still being used but I believe that Mantreads are used for easy damage, especially with good players who can play Trolldier very well. So I suggest these proposed ideas for now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Zeke Aileron™

    Zeke Aileron™ Truly Feared Pyro Contributor

    Steam:
    +1

    However it would be better to just have it added into the Banlist of weapons, so if it was equipped, it'd auto-equip a Skial Gunboats weapon instead similar to how Rocket Jumper and Sticky Bomber swap to Stock cause of the VSH Plugin.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  3. MrLupin

    MrLupin Spectacularly Lethal Soldier Contributor

    Steam:
    I gotta agree Zeke. I think adding Mantreads to the banlist and replacing it and auto-equiping Skial Gunboats is a better idea than the nerf I had suggested.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Zeke Aileron™

    Zeke Aileron™ Truly Feared Pyro Contributor

    Steam:
    Yes, plus it would make alot of maps more bearable for Hale players since i know Military Area is an example of the Mantread spam, i absolutely love the map, but i highly dislike Mantreads and the map technically wasn't designed for Mantreads in mind either, the HP kits is good as is, the only stats that Gunboats needs on it is probably.

    -25% less healing from health packs (attribute)

    They can still technically jump around alot, but health packs would be a bit less for them overall with the time they take to respawn to the amount of health you'd get with the negative attribute on it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. gorf

    gorf Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:
    +1, and Zeke's idea is pretty nice as well.
     
  6. KinCryos

    KinCryos TF2 Admin Contributor Mapper

    Steam:
    other attributes than can be used with the potential of discourage Trolldiers:
    • reduced healing from all sources (to also discourage Medics from pocketing Trolldiers; not currently used)
    • overheal penalty on wearer (used by Fists of Steel or Razorback)

    other options:
    apply crits_become_minicrits to MG to reduce damage output of Trolldiers
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. spudster

    spudster Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight

    Steam:
    +1

    Sick of dealing with them and they deserve a nerf
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. mub

    mub Totally Ordinary Human Contributor VSH Balancer

    Steam:
    +1 for a nerf, but -1 for the specific ideas.

    I’m looking into a way to modify the push force and fall dmg resist for them currently.

    Reducing their healing won’t work because then they’ll just hog more health packs, which just punishes the team.
    Overheal penalty is a nerf but I doubt it’d do much.
    Reducing the damage output isn’t as simple as an attribute since it’s custom formulas that handle %-dmg such as stabs and MGs.

    Adding this weapon to the banlist seems highly unnecessary. The only weapons mainly on the list are there because they’re incredibly busted if they were allowed, such as the jumper weapons, the Natasha, and the cloak and dagger. I think reducing the amount of extra velocity plus removing the fall damage resist would be plenty of a rework.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Italian Doctor

    Italian Doctor Wicked Nasty Engineer Contributor

    Steam:
    it's probably there because gardens barely do any damage, but god do i hate when the last people on red are all flying across the map and the hale can't get them, extending the wait time for next round
     
    • Winning Winning x 1
  10. KinCryos

    KinCryos TF2 Admin Contributor Mapper

    Steam:
    ironically, the fall damage resist is also a nerf to the Mantreads' stomping damage, being directly based off the damage the wearer would receive.

    this is why I think VSH should officially declare Hale the round's winner should time run out
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. mub

    mub Totally Ordinary Human Contributor VSH Balancer

    Steam:
    Doesn’t work in practice, unfortunately. Hales learn to just run around and camp/hide for the round duration when this is enabled, and unless RED is buff as hell, there’s not much they can do about it.
     
  12. mub

    mub Totally Ordinary Human Contributor VSH Balancer

    Steam:
    Stomp damage for manntreads is fixed at 1024. The fall damage changing doesn’t affect it whatsoever.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. big

    big Mildly Menacing Medic

    Steam:
  14. Iris Ⓐ

    Iris Ⓐ Sufficiently Lethal Scout Contributor

    Steam:
    +1 to replacing with gunboats or outright removing.
     
  15. Max1996

    Max1996 Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:
  16. MafiaBee

    MafiaBee Mildly Menacing Medic

    Steam:
  17. Hankman

    Hankman Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:
  18. SpaceWaffle

    SpaceWaffle Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:
    I personally don't understand why you guys want to nerf the Mantreads, knowing how it was nerfed originally it added a lot more blast damage on wearer, this made the mantreads be way less picked by newer players, but a good mantreads soldier that can manage his health, and if he is on a open map with healthpacks (unlike turret testing) can survive on his own, I get that some people just think they are publords with the mantreads and just jump away to healthpacks, but the bunny can abuse his broken ass range, and cbs has the arrows,and yes dealing with mantreads is annoying, but so are loose cannon demos, scouts that use the bonk, and hide until it recharges, dead ringer spies, cloak spies (that are just hiding),

    In my opinion i -1 this
     
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