If they killed off a class..

[Chance]

That only happens if the Engineer is dead, or a potato.

Potatoes are yum

 

[Roboute Guilliman]

Maybe you're not getting the point. A sentry isn't a device that was made in such a way that any class could easily kill it on its own. You need teamwork for it (and yes I'm ignoring the corner strafing with a Demoman or Soldier which works fine if the Engineer doesn't have the Short Circuit). Also try reading my complete post next time.



That means Soldier A uses the Cow Mangler 5000 to disable a sentry for 4 seconds. Then teammate A (and possibly B, C and D) come in and finish the job (even all melee style if they want to).

Also, the "mouse wheel and back" is bullshit. It takes time to refill your metal. By the time it's refilled you've already eaten 9 beggar's bazooka rockets or a few arrows. You clearly have no idea how fast the Short Circuit is out of ammo when encountering 2-5 spamming Soldiers or Demomen. The only place where it works relatively easy is inside your spawn on Dustbowl (stage 1). But that's a good thing, because shooting inside the spawn is a thing that should never have been allowed by Valve.

Also one on one (as in killing the enemy) the Short Circuit is crap. Does little damage. I've been killed multiple times by SMART Soldiers who switched to the shotgun when I was using the Short Circuit. They got me almost every time.



Like I said before, read my whole post and not only one sentence of it. Also if the soldier decides to not equip the shotgun, then that's his choice. A choice that has consequences. Don't like the consequences? Then equip the shotgun...

Again, it doesn't make demomen useless. It makes them useless for about 1 second if enough demomen are spamming all over the place.



Finally someone who gets it. I've seen Scouts and Spies kill sentries with a bare pistol.

And there's the problem.

Engineer is one class.

It is now is a two-man job to take down one person.

No other class in the game can do this. Every other class can be countered by just one person.

Engineer, with the short circuit, does not.

Engineer with the short circuit and the pompson, makes it so an entire team has to be attacking the engineer.

 

[CobraX]

And there's the problem.

Engineer is one class.

It is now is a two-man job to take down one person.

No other class in the game can do this. Every other class can be countered by just one person.

Engineer, with the short circuit, does not.

Engineer with the short circuit and the pompson, makes it so an entire team has to be attacking the engineer.

Again wrong. Having problems with that Short Circuit Engineer? Use the Cow Mangler 5000 to disable his sentry, switch to the shotgun and kill him. Go Scout, use Bonk! Atomic Punch and make sure the Engineer is right in between you and his sentry (he'll be slaughtered by his own sentry). Or just go Spy and backstab him. And if you can see the sentry without being in its line of fire, it's very easy to kill as a Sniper. Also I don't see any problem in needing two players to take out an Engineer and his sentry. If an Engineer couldn't build stuff, he simply wouldn't be an Engineer. The Engineer class dates back from the original TFC. It's not going to change/disappear because some people can't find a way to counter it.

 

[185db]

Again wrong. Having problems with that Short Circuit Engineer? Use the Cow Mangler 5000 to disable his sentry, switch to the shotgun and kill him. Go Scout, use Bonk! Atomic Punch and make sure the Engineer is right in between you and his sentry (he'll be slaughtered by his own sentry). Or just go Spy and backstab him. Also I don't see any problem in needing two players to take out an Engineer and his sentry. If an Engineer couldn't build stuff, he simply wouldn't be an Engineer. The Engineer class dates back from the original TFC. It's not going to change because some people can't find a way to counter it.

You have to be able to survive the couple second charge time of the cow mangler, and chances are the engineer will have a dispenser and be to far away for a shotgun to do any damage. Nobody uses the mangler anyway. Its nearly impossible to get a sentry to kill the engineer, almost no way to get behind because of knockback. Engineer is very unique, in that its not him you need to counter, but the sentry. You have uber, demoman, sapper, bonk for distraction, and countless other ways to take it down. The thing with the short circuit and wrangler is that it cancels demoman and all other projectiles (target of uber), and the wrangler removes the ability of bonk, and allows for specific targeting and knockback. Engineer is pretty balanced in its own right, but those 2 weapons make it a very difficult to take down. All you need is 2 engies, wrangler and rescue ranger, or short circuit and wrench, and the sentry becomes close to invincible.

 

[CobraX]

Cow Mangler, for taking out sentries?

Do you even play TF2? lol.

Do you even read my entire post(s)? lol.
(1.317 hours and counting btw)

There is a counterbalance to the Short Circuit. Any weapon that doesn't shoot projectiles. Shotgun, pistol, minigun, you name it. Also the Short Circuit runs out of ammo within a second if enough projectiles are coming its way. Sentries are btw very easy to take out if you use the Cow Mangler 5000 (second ability) with the Soldier. It disables buildings for 4 seconds during which any class is good enough to damage the buildings.

That means Soldier A uses the Cow Mangler 5000 to disable a sentry for 4 seconds. Then teammate A (and possibly B, C and D) come in and finish the job (even all melee style if they want to).

 

[185db]

Do you even read my entire post(s)? lol.
(1.317 hours and counting btw)

Do you even read my entire post(s)? lol.
(1.317 hours and counting btw)

Supernewman has over 3,000 hours.

 

[CobraX]

Supernewman has over 3,000 hours.

And? I was only trying to say his ridiculing was inappropriate.

 

[Sargent¥]

Why is everyone talking about using the Cow Mangler to take out a sentry? Ya guy's know there's a weapon called the direct hit? 2 of those rockets literally takes out a full health level 3 sentry, it's almost scary. Sure a short circuit Engineer could stop them cold but for how long? It doesn't consume your full primary ammo supply nor is it weak.

The cow mangler is a terrible choice when trying to take out a sentry. It's not hard to reflect that full charge shot, it's speed is no more than an average rocket but firing it takes your full ammo supply.The enemy team will more than likely stop you in your tracks so don't bother using the Cow Mangler. Even if you hit the sentry and run at it with a Shotgun, the Engineer's not just gonna sit there, a decent engineer with a rescue ranger can keep the sentry alive long enough for it to wake from it's beauty sleep

 

[185db]

It also depends on the map. I'm thinking of turbine, but I guess payload maps would work differently.

By the time the engie runs out of metal for the circuit, the soldier is bound to have someone attacking him.

 

[Antamania]

Again wrong. Having problems with that Short Circuit Engineer? Use the Cow Mangler 5000 to disable his sentry, switch to the shotgun and kill him. Go Scout, use Bonk! Atomic Punch and make sure the Engineer is right in between you and his sentry (he'll be slaughtered by his own sentry). Or just go Spy and backstab him. And if you can see the sentry without being in its line of fire, it's very easy to kill as a Sniper. Also I don't see any problem in needing two players to take out an Engineer and his sentry. If an Engineer couldn't build stuff, he simply wouldn't be an Engineer. The Engineer class dates back from the original TFC. It's not going to change/disappear because some people can't find a way to counter it.

You do realize that the short circuit destroys cow mangler charged shots just the same as regular rockets right? I understand you want to defend your main class of choice, but you're picking a poor weapon to demonstrate the weakness of the short circuit with. Our main issue is simply it eliminates some of the engies counter-classes without adding new ones. I will elaborate more on this.

Powerjack: Gives pyro movement speed, makes him take more damage.
Direct Hit: Sacrifice the ability to do splash damage, gain increased effects on airshots.
Spycicle: Saves you from pyros, while at the same time letting them destroy your main weapon at will.

Everyone is simply saying we wish there was a weakness built into the short circuit, something like he takes more bullet damage, takes mini crits while he has it out..SOMETHING. There should never be a DIRECT upgrade for an item, there should always be sidegrades that a person chooses between to match their playstyle.

The issue lies with the short circuit being a direct upgrade to the pistol. My complaint doesn't lie with the teamwork required to kill engineers (One could argue it typically takes more than two players to bring down a competent soldier/medic) my problem lies with the engineer constantly getting upgrades that have 0 downsides to them.

Also a lot of people dislike classes that have a low skill ceiling. There really isn't much difference between the best engineer in the world vs a great engineer. It's the same reason pyro, and heavy get so much hate.

 

[Chance]

It also depends on the map. I'm thinking of turbine, but I guess payload maps would work differently.

By the time the engie runs out of metal for the circuit, the soldier is bound to have someone attacking him.

Turbine is unbalanced as fuck, which ever team gets set up in the middle area first is most likely gonna control the whole round.

 

[185db]

Turbine is unbalanced as fuck, which ever team gets set up in the middle area first is most likely gonna control the whole round.

The team that wins is the one with the random platinum sniper on it. (those of you that play turbine, you know how many high level players get on it)

If you control mid, you also have to push through all those sentrys in the hallway, and an ubercharge can take control of mid, or vice versa. Its a very stalemate map, but that one bonk scout who steals the dominating teams intel is a thing

 

[CobraX]

You have to be able to survive the couple second charge time of the cow mangler, and chances are the engineer will have a dispenser and be to far away for a shotgun to do any damage. Nobody uses the mangler anyway. Its nearly impossible to get a sentry to kill the engineer, almost no way to get behind because of knockback. Engineer is very unique, in that its not him you need to counter, but the sentry. You have uber, demoman, sapper, bonk for distraction, and countless other ways to take it down. The thing with the short circuit and wrangler is that it cancels demoman and all other projectiles (target of uber), and the wrangler removes the ability of bonk, and allows for specific targeting and knockback. Engineer is pretty balanced in its own right, but those 2 weapons make it a very difficult to take down. All you need is 2 engies, wrangler and rescue ranger, or short circuit and wrench, and the sentry becomes close to invincible.

Surviving the 4 second charge is a piece of cake, I do it all the time. Just strafe in the line of fire of the sentry during the last half second of the charge. Regarding the difficulty of getting behind the Engineer and his sentry as a Scout: that purely depends on the map and sentry placement. I also disagree that the Short Circuit completely disables the ability of the Soldier and the Demoman. If enough projectiles are spammed, Soldier and Demoman spam is only rendered useless for about a second. If you're really having trouble killing that Engineer with his Short Circuit next to his sentry , let a Scout use the Bonk! Atomic Punch and attract sentry fire, while a sniper puts a bullet in the Engineer's head. It's almost like when the airblast was released. Lots of people moaning about their übercharge getting wasted.

 

[Antamania]

Surviving the 4 second charge is a piece of cake, I do it all the time. Just strafe in the line of fire of the sentry during the last half second of the charge. Regarding the difficulty of getting behind the Engineer and his sentry as a Scout: that purely depends on the map and sentry placement. I also disagree that the Short Circuit completely disables the ability of the Soldier and the Demoman. If enough projectiles are spammed, Soldier and Demoman spam is only rendered useless for about a second. If you're really having trouble killing that Engineer with his Short Circuit next to his sentry , let a Scout use the Bonk! Atomic Punch and attract sentry fire, while a sniper puts a bullet in the Engineer's head. It's almost like when the airblast was released. Lots of people moaning about their übercharge getting wasted.

The difference is the short circuit used to fill a niche and be an interesting weapon. You used to have to aim it, and it would get rid of some stickies/deal with sticky spam nicely. When they turned it into a minigun you didn't have to aim, is when the (rightful) complaints began. If it was such a shitty weapon, not every single engineer main would be using it, all I'm sayin.

 

[185db]

Surviving the 4 second charge is a piece of cake, I do it all the time. Just strafe in the line of fire of the sentry during the last half second of the charge. Regarding the difficulty of getting behind the Engineer and his sentry as a Scout: that purely depends on the map and sentry placement. I also disagree that the Short Circuit completely disables the ability of the Soldier and the Demoman. If enough projectiles are spammed, Soldier and Demoman spam is only rendered useless for about a second. If you're really having trouble killing that Engineer with his Short Circuit next to his sentry , let a Scout use the Bonk! Atomic Punch and attract sentry fire, while a sniper puts a bullet in the Engineer's head. It's almost like when the airblast was released. Lots of people moaning about their übercharge getting wasted.

What you are describing is something called "teamwork". Most people do not know such a thing exists.

 

[CobraX]

You do realize that the short circuit destroys cow mangler charged shots just the same as regular rockets right? I understand you want to defend your main class of choice, but you're picking a poor weapon to demonstrate the weakness of the short circuit with.

Actually my main choice of class has been Soldier for the last year or so (and sometimes Pyro when I want to annoy spies). I played Engineer more often before the Short Circuit was released. However I play Engineer on another level now. I play it to counter those brainless spammers (especially Demomen) you see a lot on Dustbowl.

Our main issue is simply it eliminates some of the engies counter-classes without adding new ones. I will elaborate more on this.

Powerjack: Gives pyro movement speed, makes him take more damage.
Direct Hit: Sacrifice the ability to do splash damage, gain increased effects on airshots.
Spycicle: Saves you from pyros, while at the same time letting them destroy your main weapon at will.

Everyone is simply saying we wish there was a weakness built into the short circuit, something like he takes more bullet damage, takes mini crits while he has it out..SOMETHING. There should never be a DIRECT upgrade for an item, there should always be sidegrades that a person chooses between to match their playstyle.

The issue lies with the short circuit being a direct upgrade to the pistol. My complaint doesn't lie with the teamwork required to kill engineers (One could argue it typically takes more than two players to bring down a competent soldier/medic) my problem lies with the engineer constantly getting upgrades that have 0 downsides to them.

In fact it does come with weaknesses compared to the pistol. Its base damage is 5, while the base damage of the pistol is 15. Also, the Short Circuit cannot crit. If the pistol crits, it does 45 damage. Basically the only thing the Short Circuit does (as an offensive weapon) is tickle the enemy. Even an enemy with a melee weapon will beat the crap out of an Engineer using the Short Circuit to attack him.

Also a lot of people dislike classes that have a low skill ceiling. There really isn't much difference between the best engineer in the world vs a great engineer. It's the same reason pyro, and heavy get so much hate.

Same story for the Demoman. The biggest noob class in the world to me. Spam & pray and you'll be on top of the leaderboards.

 

[Roboute Guilliman]

Actually my main choice of class has been Soldier for the last year or so (and sometimes Pyro when I want to annoy spies). I played Engineer more often before the Short Circuit was released. However I play Engineer on another level now. I play it to counter those brainless spammers (especially Demomen) you see a lot on Dustbowl.



In fact it does come with weaknesses compared to the pistol. Its base damage is 5, while the base damage of the pistol is 15. Also, the Short Circuit cannot crit. If the pistol crits, it does 45 damage. Basically the only thing the Short Circuit does (as an offensive weapon) is tickle the enemy. Even an enemy with a melee weapon will beat the crap out of an Engineer using the Short Circuit to attack him.



Same story for the Demoman. The biggest noob class in the world to me. Spam & pray and you'll be on top of the leaderboards.

Why would you use the short circuit to hit the enemy anyways? Not having the pistol is not a loss to the engineer at all. Why do you think it is that Heavies all happily give up their shotgun for a sandwich? It's because they have no need for a secondary, just like Engineer has no need for his pistol but abuses the hell of the short circuit.

 

[Chance]

The team that wins is the one with the random platinum sniper on it. (those of you that play turbine, you know how many high level players get on it)

If you control mid, you also have to push through all those sentrys in the hallway, and an ubercharge can take control of mid, or vice versa. Its a very stalemate map, but that one bonk scout who steals the dominating teams intel is a thing

I'm saying in general, which team controls mid first most likely wins most of the time. And usually the Snipers on there aren't doing much. It's the Engineers. The amount of Engineers is what usually gets people.

 

[CobraX]

Why would you use the short circuit to hit the enemy anyways? Not having the pistol is not a loss to the engineer at all. Why do you think it is that Heavies all happily give up their shotgun for a sandwich? It's because they have no need for a secondary, just like Engineer has no need for his pistol but abuses the hell of the short circuit.

That was not the problem. The problem was that the Short Circuit didn't have any weaknesses compared to the pistol (which isn't true). The biggest weakness of the Short Circuit is that it's useless for killing people.

 

[185db]

That was not the problem. The problem was that the Short Circuit didn't have any weaknesses compared to the pistol (which isn't true). The biggest weakness of the Short Circuit is that it's useless for killing people.

Which is why you have a sentry and a shotgun. The engineer is not meant to kill people himself anyways