New End Double Jeopardy

[Winnie]

End Double Jeopardy​

This suggestion comes as a concern that players are being punished twice for the same infraction and it is negatively impacting the community.
​

Quarf is the first report that I was involved in witnessing. They were discontent about being muted for a slur by the automute, but they did not repeat after the mute expired. Unfortunately, a report was generated for another mute to be actioned on the player. They have not returned after they were muted again.
Quarf is just one of the many players who choose not to return to Skial. Multiple similar reports are occurring that prevent players from playing in Skial.

Another example is Jebus's report. How can it be considered fair to impose two disciplinary actions when the evidence clearly shows the automute doing its function?

The mute/silence was edited to be a day instead by an anonymous administrator.


​

Lastly, the most recent report from Arvense. This player appeared, according to logs, with poor intent.
They were automuted, so the situation at hand was already resolved.

​

Recent reports are resulting similarly. There are just too many times when a player is getting muted again for something they have already been muted for. It's out of control, and it needs to be addressed.

 

[caramel]

with all due and respect this thread should not have been posted.

as a black person myself im not one to be bothered too much by someone using my word if its in a joking matter unless its an insult.
however, i understand that it is still insulting whether or not to use that word because of how other black people feel.
and that DOES NOT mean that theyre sensitive or snowflakes that can't handle their own word, it's just insulting no matter what, periodt.

there is no double jeopardy in how the admins moderate, the auto-mute detects anyone who tries to bypass the nword, and we already had a thread created by jerma early this year stating that we would only extend the mutes if they had multiple 2-hour mutes in their sourceban history.

but other than that, we don't double punish someone just because they said a racial slur unless they had multiple 2 hour mutes and then get reported for it.
that applies to any slur as well not just the nword, and besides its not double punishing, its discipline. something that you guys should experience sometimes.

i handle ZE and they always try to work their way to dodge around saying the word and i dont really punish for that since they're not saying it unless they try to bait, say it in VC or censor it in chat. so dont say that ZE is in a dying state due to moderation because it's clearly not.

 

[Jermaphobe]

Overpolicing doesn't make the server better. Double jeopardy only serves to dissaude new players from playing. On the other hand, old regulars get muted because someone is too sensitive and can't handle a certain phrase. A janny slapping another punishment on top of that is ridiculous.

In these trying times where Skial servers have become increasingly emptier these past two years, and DR and ZE servers have started dying out, there is no point in appeasing redditors who don't play the server.

This behavior is exactly what made regulars leave on top of their other grievances with how those gamemodes were being handled.

+1

 

[lucas4647]

A similar example would be detainment. Holding a person so they cannot commit further crimes is not the punishment as they are sentenced at a later date which reflect the actual crime committed.

I love this take.

 

[Nicholas771212]

The automute is not reflecting for spam. Unless vote silenced for spam. Otherwise it provides the reason when detected for a slur as shown from Jebus’s evidence in the suggestion.

I feel you misunderstand what I meant. Players who use something that triggers automute lose their ability to speak so they cannot send something that violates the rule again. Prior to the automute, many scenarios of people simply spamming slurs as much as possible existed, this helps avoid that situation.

You are bringing the person out of detainment (automute) for another trial on the same offense after sentencing. They could be waiting to be let out the 30 minutes to communicate. We can’t tell for the good or for the worse, that’s up to the discretion and respect of the player. They already received the memo that they got muted and as for what. That’s caught at the scene of the crime guilty. No trial.

The people getting increased mutes are generally the ones who do not get the memo. Many cases of players having literal pages of vote mutes or auto mutes. I cannot speak to all cases but this is the general reason for the increase and reflection of actual punishment. The automutes purpose is to prevent the player from continuing to speak as they have shown they are unable to control themself in a respectable manner, a proper punishment (not a second trial, this is reflective of what they should be getting instead of the flat rate the automute applies) is sometimes later applied and the matter is closed.

 

[Winnie]

I’ve witnessed the function in full motion in Dustbowl with no action on reporting in forum. Dr. K can be my witness as well.

I see what paradise is and what simply isn’t.

 

[Kjo]

-1

 

[lucas4647]

I can’t reiterate this enough.

I have never seen a automute for 1 day with a follow up one day mute from a report generated from ONLY the single message the automute muted for.

That means Nicholas’s take about it being a holding charge (2hours automute) holds as the best take. If we were to see a 2 hour mute punishment from a report on a 2 hour automute it would be different.

Starting to agree with gala. Wasted rule change energy.

 

[Enraged Blood]

In all seriousness, I don't know why we still look at CT's opinion as something worth listening to. The man thinks mixed couples shouldn't have kids and that the earth is flat. He has admitted both of these in my dms. This is a genuinely mentally unwell individual who needs therapy, not discussing skial deathrun. Sorry for derailing your suggestion, winnie, but I can't keep this to myself anymore.

Ong, I just don't know why the Admins won't just get rid of him at this point! He mostly just trying to turn Skial into the next Trump Adminstartion. However, when he dosen't get his way he will just leave and say he won't come back, but then a while returns just for his cycle to repeat!

 

[Cream Tea]

Starting to agree with gala. Wasted rule change energy.

It's funny that me and others are told to make suggestions to change the rules instead of targetting, or "witch hunting", specific admins but when we do that we are met with bullshit from the same admins we're told not to target who take it upon themselves to speak for @Bottiger and go "the outcome of this suggestion has already been determined so don't even bother!".

 

[BryceM]

Ong, I just don't know why the Admins won't just get rid of him at this point! He mostly just trying to turn Skial into the next Trump Adminstartion. However, when he dosen't get his way he will just leave and say he won't come back, but then a while returns just for his cycle to repeat!

true. Cream Tea loves "leaving" for a bit, only to come crawling back. And he always comes crawling back whining that he can't hate trans people anymore like 2015 skial.

 

[Winnie]

I feel like y’all are searching for takes to discredit Cream Tea’s take that's not relevant to the suggestion whatsoever.

Y’all won’t let him move on to learn so it’s proving why he isn’t able to adapt in this hostile environment. It’s cruel and not helping him or y’all.

 

[lucas4647]

It's funny that me and others are told to make suggestions to change the rules instead of targetting, or "witch hunting", specific admins but when we do that we are met with bullshit from the same admins we're told not to target who take it upon themselves to speak for @Bottiger and go "the outcome of this suggestion has already been determined so don't even bother!".

No it was a good post. I loved the discussion but someone metagamed the discussion and brought it to its conclusions. Automutes function as a holding charge. It just makes perfect sense.

Just read Nicholas’s post #44 in the thread which breaks it down so well that a child could understand. This discussion is over. It was real, it was fun, but that take sums up everything perfectly. Unless new evidence to the contrary is submitted this double jeopardy post has concluded.

I appreciate people suggesting rule changes and and glad to be part of the process. I think rule changes suggestion threads are great and I vehemently disagree with Caramel’s take that “this thread should not have been posted.” Community organization is a core tenant of Skial and has been how this org grows/changes before any of us were here and will continue to be until we all leave and the servers shut down.

 

[Winnie]

No it was a good post. I loved the discussion but someone metagamed the discussion and brought it to its conclusions. Automutes function as a holding charge. It just makes perfect sense.

Just read Nicholas’s post #44 in the thread which breaks it down so well that a child could understand. This discussion is over. It was real, it was fun, but that take sums up everything perfectly. Unless new evidence to the contrary is submitted this double jeopardy post has concluded.

I appreciate people suggesting rule changes and and glad to be part of the process. I think rule changes suggestion threads are great and I vehemently disagree with Caramel’s take that “this thread should not have been posted.” Community organization is a core tenant of Skial and has been how this org grows/changes before any of us were here and will continue to be until we all leave and the servers shut down.

An admin saying this discussion is over is not Bottiger’s agreement.

You got a few wanting Hawk Tuah gone bro and look it’s still there despite the odds.

 

[lucas4647]

An admin saying this discussion is over is not Bottiger’s agreement.

I didn’t say it’s over because an admin said so. Wtf lol.

It’s over because someone theorized the natural end of the discussion already. The automute is a holding charge. It just makes perfect sense Winnie. Think for a second it works just like real life.

Person breaks and enters a convenience store
-held overnight on “disorderly conduct” charge
-person gets bond to get out the next day
-as they are walking out of courthouse new charges fitting the severity or pervasiveness of the crime are laid on to put the person back in jail (in my hypothetical breaking & entering and burglary charges added to extend jail time.)

That’s not double jeopardy. It’s extending the punishment to its proper length or it’s adding to the original punishment due to the totality of the circumstances the automute does not take into account.

That’s why I say it’s dead. Unless more evidence is posted it’s come to its natural conclusions.

Edit to add

Here’s a real life example. It’s not double jeopardy here IRL so why would it be in game. I used a SA case because those are popular for double jeopardy rallying cries IRL that are incorrect.

https://sheriff.venturacounty.gov/v...arrested-after-additional-victims-identified/

 

[Enraged Blood]

I feel like y’all are searching for takes to discredit Cream Tea’s take that's not relevant to the suggestion whatsoever.

Y’all won’t let him move on to learn so it’s proving why he isn’t able to adapt in this hostile environment. It’s cruel and not helping him or y’all.

As somebody who was a former friend of him, i do not feel any empathy for this dude!

And talk about "not letting him move on to learn". He brought that onto himself, he keeps returning once a full moon to skial just to spread his shit ever since he got removed from his admin position, and this is something not new. The Cycle is just as of now:

> Go on Skial
> See a person banned for something fucked
> Blame the admin just because the person who got banned annoyed the admins on their profile requesting an unabn or the person just not learning from the mistake
> Gets Schooled on by smart people
> He leaves and then claims he will not return and goes to whatever space he has to vent to his meat riders about "Skial Admin Bad"
> He returns and then the cycle repeats


We ain't saying shit to him or bringing him up, he just keeps clowning himself by having grudges onto certain admins and then he wonders why he gets shit talked in the Skial Donor Channel


Sure i can admit it wasn't revelant or needed, but at the stime he mostly just looks for a random suggestion criticizing Skial's Moderation and turn it into his little hellhole and if he really is "wanting to move on" then he should prob quit and find other hobbies!

 

[Jermaphobe]

I'll just say that this suggestion won't pass so you guys should use this energy to something else

I say there is some merit to it

I've advocated a few times that there's no point in having the filter if we're just going back in sourcebans & re-issuing bans the filter already caught & banned for. Dodging the filter or considering the sheer amount of them in some situations is fine

 

[gala]

I say there is some merit to it

I've advocated a few times that there's no point in having the filter if we're just going back in sourcebans & re-issuing bans the filter already caught & banned for. Dodging the filter or considering the sheer amount of them in some situations is fine

I don't see an issue with it, if someone goes through the trouble of reporting someone who said a hard r it's no big deal for us to just make it 1 day. If they have history then obviously longer. Them having a 2 hour mute already shouldn't be protection against getting reported

If we would not modify players who are already muted then technically if someone says the f slur and gets reported = 1 day mute. But if they just say hard r instead they can get away with 2 hours

I mentioned previously that I only extend mutes if I notice someone having more than 5 of them stacked, I won't bother changing every 2h mute into 1 day that I see. But sometimes they get reported and resolving the report like we resolve other reports makes sense to me

 

[VentureDev]

i handle ZE and they always try to work their way to dodge around saying the word and i dont really punish for that since they're not saying it unless they try to bait, say it in VC or censor it in chat. so dont say that ZE is in a dying state due to moderation because it's clearly not.

Actively being hostile to old players does no service in incentivizing them to play or contribute to the game. More than enough have gotten in trouble for being "too edgy" for certain admins or permabanned for using an autoclicker and quit entirely.

Lest I mention how Bottle (map porter) was muted by gala for saying "fag" despite 1;

2; not being on the automute filter. This snowballed into him leaving last year once he got fed up.

Don't you dare claim moderation didn't play a part in the current state of ZE or the broader Skial community.

 

[caramel]

Actively being hostile to old players does no service in incentivizing them to play or contribute to the game. More than enough have gotten in trouble for being "too edgy" for certain admins or permabanned for using an autoclicker and quit entirely.

Lest I mention how Bottle (map porter) was muted by gala for saying "fag" despite 1;
View attachment 4369
2; not being on the automute filter. This snowballed into him leaving last year once he got fed up.

Don't you dare claim moderation didn't play a part in the current state of ZE or the broader Skial community.

i was only referencing this year for how the current state of ZE is + its moderation, no where have i intended to say that the previous years of moderation have affected the server, which i won't disagree on you with.

but like i mentioned just casually throwing out the fslur even if youre gay or the nword even if youre black is not allowed.
because people will start saying "well why should he get to say it but we cant since against the rules!!"

its their word ofc, but its just gonna create a toxic environment, and according to the old ZE regs that i have communicated with (the original massamune owners) they have felt uncomfortable and tired of the ZE regs being toxic/racist/overall inappropriate and started slowly leaving both the discord server and skial entirely.

you have to consider all these factors when it comes to moderation and how for some people it may be fair but for others it may be unfair.
have you ever seen me mute anyone for saying "laserfag"? no because they're allowed to say it. it's a part of the community but just saying the fslur by itself even if you're gay, it's still harmful.

 

[caramel]

+ iirc from what i remember, bottle had left due to bottiger and the constant map fixings, not the moderation.
and you out of all people Venture know that the numerous untold changes to the server over the years has also affected the community and its players.