RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
For starters, I hardly use the skial forums. So if I put this in the wrong place, please advise me or move it to the correct spot if you can. Thanks!

Okay, let’s get started.
There are multiple weapons on vsh that people have started abusing lately (at least on the US server), and makes them almost impossible for saxton hale to kill anyone using them. Let me explain:

1. Baby Face’s Blaster: Allows a scout to outrun hale by a long shot, and a scout using this with good aim can totally obliterate hale without hale being able to ever catch up. Even raging the scout makes it impossible for hale to catch up to him if they have that aim.
Solution(s): Lower the ammo count from 32 to 24, forcing scouts to have to actually play with a fair chance of hale to kill them.

2. Battalion’s Backup: The Direct Hit, which gives 300 damage on mini-crits, severely allows people to abuse this with only two hits after taunting. The hale is unable to kill these soldiers because of The Direct Hit’s knockback and damage. And, ontop of that, they are able to use it during rage, which makes hale unable to kill ANYBODY in his rage, unless they have low health.
Solution(s): Either nerf The Direct Hit, or make The Battalion’s Backup need much more rage to activate.

3. The Loose Cannon: This one is iffy in wether or not this counts as too powerful, since it’s the same in vanilla TF2, but let me give some insight. Because of the ‘donk’ ability, hale gets SEVERELY knocked back, causing him to be unable to kill the demo UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE (if the demo is somewhat competent). And, even if hale is lucky enough to get close, the demoman can just jump away by charging The Loose Cannon underneath them.
Solution(s): Get rid of the knockback capabilities, or at least lower them. Additionally, if the knockback is lowered, add another two clips (24) to its ammo count to account for that knockback reduction.

4. The Mantreads: Now, this one is another one that is arguable, because it is fairly balanced. BUT, it does not include a much-needed negative that is needed to give hale at least a little bit of a chance to catch the soldiers that use these.
Solution(s): add +25% damage from rocket jumps, and +10% fall damage.

5. All Sniper Rifles: Snipers can get to places hale can usually get to by jumping, but the sniper rifles make it impossible for him to get to their position if the snipers can aim.
Solution: Lower the ammo count of Sniper Rifles from 25 to 20, or decrease the knockback reduction Sniper Rifles give.

There are also weapons that have long-awaited buffs:

1. Gunthreads: Nobody uses it anymore, because The Manthreads are so much better now.
Solution(s): add +50% knockback from rocket jumps, and give 25% more health from healthpacks.

2. Eureka Effect: Bring it back with the ability to only be able to go to your exit teleporter.

3. The Winger: Nobody uses it anymore, because of the reduction to goomba damage.
Solution: While equipped, goomba stomps are 50% more effective. If that isn’t possible from a developer standpoint, double the damage made by goomba stomps while it is equipped.

I know this all has a very fair chance of not being seen by the developer that needs to see it, but it’s been getting VERY difficult to be hale when everyone is using the weapons that need a nerf. And that’s coming from me, Rocko, that plays on this server everyday and is one of the top players there. Hopefully, someone can agree, or help adjust the changes that need to be made to balancing on vsh!
 
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RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Also, reguarding the Baby Face’s Blaster: People can abuse it by using the Boston Basher. The lower the health they have, the higher the ROF they have. This makes it even more difficult and unfair.
Rethinking this, it’s more of a lose-lose situation, because the scout wastes all of his clip, has hardly any health, and loses ammo a lot faster. So scratch that.
 

White Moose

Positively Inhumane Poster
-1 to the majority of proposed nerfs and buffs
except sniper ie: perhaps a player limit on sniper is a better solution.

the battalion banner is not to be nerfed b/c the player gives up on rocket jumping
also rocko you are condescending in your responses, imo
 

chairius✿

Wicked Nasty Engineer
FF2 Balancer
Rethinking this, it’s more of a lose-lose situation, because the scout wastes all of his clip, has hardly any health, and loses ammo a lot faster. So scratch that.
no, maybe remove that 25% plus damage buff, because that's why it's stupidly overpowered and basically a direct upgrade to stock
 

RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
-1 to the majority of proposed nerfs and buffs
except sniper ie: perhaps a player limit on sniper is a better solution.

the battalion banner is not to be nerfed b/c the player gives up on rocket jumping
also rocko you are condescending in your responses, imo
The only response imo I could’ve been seen as condesending is when I said I was “playing for years too” and “I’m almost always at the top of the leaderboard”, and that was only because it was the only way to respond in my pov without seeming like a douche.
And I obviously don’t think my opinion is the only way, either; I’m open to suggestions, but the simple fact is that a bunch of those weapons, if not all, need some sort of balancing.
 
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Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
-1 Baby face: Strafe/Just rage?
-1 Battalion’s Backup: Jump away when active? Don't fight when you can clearly see it's active?
-1 The Loose Cannon: This kind of makes sense but 80% of the time people only hit the first part which does 50% damage so I'm fine with knockback for trading 50% of my damage.
0 The Mantreads: Meh
0 All Sniper Rifles: Sniper Rifles aren't the problem, It's that the class needs a limit. No clue why this hasn't been added yet.
-1 Gunboats: They're fine, useable on maps with no/less health packs.
-1 Eureka Effect: Please no.
-1 Winger: I see it all the time? It's fine.

Overall, only thing I think needs SERIOUS attention is sniper limit which has been asked for multiple times. Mantread Soldiers are only a problem on Military and Urban and since those maps are over played it makes it that much worse.
 

RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
-1 Baby face: Strafe/Just rage?
-1 Battalion’s Backup: Jump away when active? Don't fight when you can clearly see it's active?
-1 The Loose Cannon: This kind of makes sense but 80% of the time people only hit the first part which does 50% damage so I'm fine with knockback for trading 50% of my damage.
0 The Mantreads: Meh
0 All Sniper Rifles: Sniper Rifles aren't the problem, It's that the class needs a limit. No clue why this hasn't been added yet.
-1 Gunboats: They're fine, useable on maps with no/less health packs.
-1 Eureka Effect: Please no.
-1 Winger: I see it all the time? It's fine.

Overall, only thing I think needs SERIOUS attention is sniper limit which has been asked for multiple times. Mantread Soldiers are only a problem on Military and Urban and since those maps are over played it makes it that much worse.
Baby Face Blaster cannot be killed if it is a competent scout that knows how to strafe and shoot. Even by rage.
Manthreads are abused EVERYWHERE; not just those two maps. If Manthreads weren’t so powerful, people would be using Gunboats.
No one uses the Gunboats simply because the Manthreads are infinitely better. It’s far from fine; it’s inferior, and needs something that makes it worth using.
The Winger needs a buff because you can hardly get any damage off of it; the last time it was useful, it was for goomba stomps, which they nerfed a long while ago.
Battalion’s Backup, like everyone has been saying, can be countered by just jumping away. But when there are multiple ones that can get it with two hits, and have good aim, it’s barely fair for Hale. Two hits is ridiculous for something that powerful, and it gets easily abused in groups because of it.
Yes, Sniper needs a limit; but with even something like 4 snipers in the same spot, it can be almost completely impossible to get them in any scenario that they have a ledge you have to jump to.
 

Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
Winger has jump height, Doesn't need anything more. <forgot to add this>

Anyone could make this argument over literally every item allowed in VSH, "The Pain Train suck lets give it this or that." (for example)
This game mode isn't supposed to be everyone can be able to be a PrO vSh GaMeR in like 10 minuets. You learn from mistakes and change next time, adapt. < remember this term is applies for every item nerf you suggested.
I have no problem with any of these except sniper limit like I said, my overall vote still stands at -1.
 

RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Winger has jump height, Doesn't need anything more. <forgot to add this>

Anyone could make this argument over literally every item allowed in VSH, "The Pain Train suck lets give it this or that." (for example)
This game mode isn't supposed to be everyone can be able to be a PrO vSh GaMeR in like 10 minuets. You learn from mistakes and change next time, adapt. < remember this term is applies for every item nerf you suggested.
I have no problem with any of these except sniper limit like I said, my overall vote still stands at -1.
The point of making this thread, like I said earlier, is not because you can learn how to counter these weapons; it’s because it’s almost impossible to counter them. I didn’t make a thread because “I can’t get the people with these weapons because they’re too good with them”, it’s because “Hardly any hale can get to people with these weapons because the weapons are too powerful and unbalanced.” And yeah, I get that everyone could literally make every argument over all the weapons that aren’t being used, like The Short Circuit for example, but that would be useless because the thread is about how these weapons are almost always being used because of how superior they are to every other weapon (except the snipers).
 

Orthros

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Figured I'd throw my hat into the ring... (a hat w/ 2500+ VSH Hours across multiple servers over several years)

For the initial nerf propositions, I disagree with most. The only weapons on that list that I feel need to be nerfed are the Baby Face's Blaster & the Mantreads, and both for the same reason: too much mobility without a proper con to balance it out. The Mantreads are even iffy; it's much more a map problem as mentioned above. Perhaps I should recommend a map list... :thinking:

As for your suggested buffs, please for the love of Christ don't add those stats to Gunboats. That would make them even more annoying than the current Mantreads. I support the Eureka effect, I think that'd be kinda cool. The Winger idea is neat; you could add a Mantread landing effect while active to provide extra goomba damage and maybe even fall damage resistance.

Wheyloffle made a good point as well: a lot of players are just really good. Pardon my lack of modesty, but I topscore on probably 8/10 rounds, often with 150-200+ points. I can get 6k+ damage as Medic (without stealing damage via healing teammates) w/ the Crossbow, but I don't see a nerf suggestion for that on here. That's because it's only truly powerful in the hands of someone that can use it. (I get accused of hacking with it on a regular basis, so I think I qualify.) A lot of the weapons listed tend fall under that same sort of standard, the Direct Hit, Battalions, and Loose Cannon being primary candidates.

TL;DR: Nerf BFB & Mantreads. Look more into changing/replacing the map list with balanced maps. Consider potential buffs to Eureka Effect & Winger. Keep all other weapons the way they are.

Let me know your thoughts.
-Orthros
 

chairius✿

Wicked Nasty Engineer
FF2 Balancer
Figured I'd throw my hat into the ring... (a hat w/ 2500+ VSH Hours across multiple servers over several years)

For the initial nerf propositions, I disagree with most. The only weapons on that list that I feel need to be nerfed are the Baby Face's Blaster & the Mantreads, and both for the same reason: too much mobility without a proper con to balance it out. The Mantreads are even iffy; it's much more a map problem as mentioned above. Perhaps I should recommend a map list... :thinking:

As for your suggested buffs, please for the love of Christ don't add those stats to Gunboats. That would make them even more annoying than the current Mantreads. I support the Eureka effect, I think that'd be kinda cool. The Winger idea is neat; you could add a Mantread landing effect while active to provide extra goomba damage and maybe even fall damage resistance.

Wheyloffle made a good point as well: a lot of players are just really good. Pardon my lack of modesty, but I topscore on probably 8/10 rounds, often with 150-200+ points. I can get 6k+ damage as Medic (without stealing damage via healing teammates) w/ the Crossbow, but I don't see a nerf suggestion for that on here. That's because it's only truly powerful in the hands of someone that can use it. (I get accused of hacking with it on a regular basis, so I think I qualify.) A lot of the weapons listed tend fall under that same sort of standard, the Direct Hit, Battalions, and Loose Cannon being primary candidates.

TL;DR: Nerf BFB & Mantreads. Look more into changing/replacing the map list with balanced maps. Consider potential buffs to Eureka Effect & Winger. Keep all other weapons the way they are.

Let me know your thoughts.
-Orthros
^^^^
this, agreed. bfb needs the damage bonus removed and the mantreads either need the rocketjump boost removed or the air control/knockback resist removed.
 

RockoRango

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Figured I'd throw my hat into the ring... (a hat w/ 2500+ VSH Hours across multiple servers over several years)

For the initial nerf propositions, I disagree with most. The only weapons on that list that I feel need to be nerfed are the Baby Face's Blaster & the Mantreads, and both for the same reason: too much mobility without a proper con to balance it out. The Mantreads are even iffy; it's much more a map problem as mentioned above. Perhaps I should recommend a map list... :thinking:

As for your suggested buffs, please for the love of Christ don't add those stats to Gunboats. That would make them even more annoying than the current Mantreads. I support the Eureka effect, I think that'd be kinda cool. The Winger idea is neat; you could add a Mantread landing effect while active to provide extra goomba damage and maybe even fall damage resistance.

Wheyloffle made a good point as well: a lot of players are just really good. Pardon my lack of modesty, but I topscore on probably 8/10 rounds, often with 150-200+ points. I can get 6k+ damage as Medic (without stealing damage via healing teammates) w/ the Crossbow, but I don't see a nerf suggestion for that on here. That's because it's only truly powerful in the hands of someone that can use it. (I get accused of hacking with it on a regular basis, so I think I qualify.) A lot of the weapons listed tend fall under that same sort of standard, the Direct Hit, Battalions, and Loose Cannon being primary candidates.

TL;DR: Nerf BFB & Mantreads. Look more into changing/replacing the map list with balanced maps. Consider potential buffs to Eureka Effect & Winger. Keep all other weapons the way they are.

Let me know your thoughts.
-Orthros
Well, sure. You want only those, that’s fine. Sure players are good, LIKE I SAID I’M BOTH A GOOD HALE AND A TOP PLAYER, just to make that clear again, but the POINT was that the weapons give them an advantage vs another weapon like the stock rocket launcher. (You don’t have to tell everyone about your playtime or anything like that to make yours stand out, imo that’s egotistic unless there’s no other way to explain something other than to do it in that way. Just thought I needed to say that, because it feels like someone is trying to prove that their opinion matters more because they think they’re better. That tends to agitate me quite a bit).
Also, a sniper limit is CRITICAL to the state of the servers atm. I just joined the US server, and it had 11 snipers on vsh_toys_v2. Come up with a reason why that would make any sense once so ever to not put in vsh, because hale 100% cannot win; that’s almost 1/3 of the whole server.
 
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Orthros

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Well, sure. You want only those, that’s fine. Sure players are good, LIKE I SAID I’M BOTH A GOOD HALE AND A TOP PLAYER, just to make that clear again, but the POINT was that the weapons give them an advantage vs another weapon like the stock rocket launcher. (You don’t have to tell everyone about your playtime or anything like that to make yours stand out, imo that’s egotistic unless there’s no other way to explain something other than to do it in that way. Just thought I needed to say that, because it feels like someone is trying to prove that their opinion matters more because they think they’re better. That tends to agitate me quite a bit).
Also, a sniper limit is CRITICAL to the state of the servers atm. I just joined the US server, and it had 11 snipers on vsh_toys_v2. Come up with a reason why that would make any sense once so ever to not put in vsh, because hale 100% cannot win; that’s almost 1/3 of the whole server.

First of all, that first paragraph might be the most hypocritical thing I've ever read.

Secondly, I never said I didn't like the idea of a sniper limit. I said "Keep all other weapons the way they are." And again, it's less a class problem and more a map problem.

To reiterate: +1 to BFB & Mantreads Nerf, Consideration of serious map changes, & Winger/EE buffs, and sniper limit. -1 to everything else.
 

Orthros

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
@Wheyloffle if you don't mind me asking, which part of my above post do you disagree with? I'm not trying to change your mind or argue, I'm just wondering.