Multiple Weapons on vsh that NEED to be nerfed.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by RockoRango, Jun 10, 2018.

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  1. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    For starters, I hardly use the skial forums. So if I put this in the wrong place, please advise me or move it to the correct spot if you can. Thanks!

    Okay, let’s get started.
    There are multiple weapons on vsh that people have started abusing lately (at least on the US server), and makes them almost impossible for saxton hale to kill anyone using them. Let me explain:

    1. Baby Face’s Blaster: Allows a scout to outrun hale by a long shot, and a scout using this with good aim can totally obliterate hale without hale being able to ever catch up. Even raging the scout makes it impossible for hale to catch up to him if they have that aim.
    Solution(s): Lower the ammo count from 32 to 24, forcing scouts to have to actually play with a fair chance of hale to kill them.

    2. Battalion’s Backup: The Direct Hit, which gives 300 damage on mini-crits, severely allows people to abuse this with only two hits after taunting. The hale is unable to kill these soldiers because of The Direct Hit’s knockback and damage. And, ontop of that, they are able to use it during rage, which makes hale unable to kill ANYBODY in his rage, unless they have low health.
    Solution(s): Either nerf The Direct Hit, or make The Battalion’s Backup need much more rage to activate.

    3. The Loose Cannon: This one is iffy in wether or not this counts as too powerful, since it’s the same in vanilla TF2, but let me give some insight. Because of the ‘donk’ ability, hale gets SEVERELY knocked back, causing him to be unable to kill the demo UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE (if the demo is somewhat competent). And, even if hale is lucky enough to get close, the demoman can just jump away by charging The Loose Cannon underneath them.
    Solution(s): Get rid of the knockback capabilities, or at least lower them. Additionally, if the knockback is lowered, add another two clips (24) to its ammo count to account for that knockback reduction.

    4. The Mantreads: Now, this one is another one that is arguable, because it is fairly balanced. BUT, it does not include a much-needed negative that is needed to give hale at least a little bit of a chance to catch the soldiers that use these.
    Solution(s): add +25% damage from rocket jumps, and +10% fall damage.

    5. All Sniper Rifles: Snipers can get to places hale can usually get to by jumping, but the sniper rifles make it impossible for him to get to their position if the snipers can aim.
    Solution: Lower the ammo count of Sniper Rifles from 25 to 20, or decrease the knockback reduction Sniper Rifles give.

    There are also weapons that have long-awaited buffs:

    1. Gunthreads: Nobody uses it anymore, because The Manthreads are so much better now.
    Solution(s): add +50% knockback from rocket jumps, and give 25% more health from healthpacks.

    2. Eureka Effect: Bring it back with the ability to only be able to go to your exit teleporter.

    3. The Winger: Nobody uses it anymore, because of the reduction to goomba damage.
    Solution: While equipped, goomba stomps are 50% more effective. If that isn’t possible from a developer standpoint, double the damage made by goomba stomps while it is equipped.

    I know this all has a very fair chance of not being seen by the developer that needs to see it, but it’s been getting VERY difficult to be hale when everyone is using the weapons that need a nerf. And that’s coming from me, Rocko, that plays on this server everyday and is one of the top players there. Hopefully, someone can agree, or help adjust the changes that need to be made to balancing on vsh!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  2. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer Sufficiently Lethal Scout Contributor

    Steam:

    +1, however I don't think the Loose Cannon should be nerfed, demos are usually easy to kill. Also what makes the Battalions Backup overpowered is Zatoichi, which keeps the soldier alive mainly because he can gain more health than hale does when using the Battalion. The mantreads shouldn't have the rocket damage disadvantage, just remove the fall damage advantage.
     
  3. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Demos should usually be easy to kill, but you can’t even reach one if he uses The Loose Cannon effectively. Though, it’s much more noticable in tight corridors and doorways. Also, The Battalion gives EVERYONE an unfairly huge reduction in damage, meaning he can survive right through a rage even if he dies in the end. What really gets on people’s nerves is when you’re trying to rage something that you can only kill by raging, and a soldier stands in a random corner and activates their buff so that no one can be killed.
     
  4. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Changes to Gunboats, Mantreads, Eureka Effect, and BBB:
    Add/change the following to Gunboats: +25% extra fall damage.
    Add/change the following to Mantreads: +50% extra fall damage.
    Add/change the following to Eureka Effect: teleporting costs 100 metal.
    Add/change the following to BBB: Change the clip count to 5 instead of 6.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. WWHHOO??

    WWHHOO?? Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

  6. B2Hopeless

    B2Hopeless Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:

  7. Wheyloffle

    Wheyloffle Unremarkable User

    I say nay; here's my essay, ese.

    I agree that there's quite an imbalance against hales, but I don't think the best way of counteracting that is to nerf the classes that people like to play. I actually blame the maps and their designs for the most part, and personally believe that the easiest, maybe best solution (one that debatably should've been put in a long time ago) is to allow hales to pick who they get to play as just like in Freak Fortress.


    Each boss has upsides and downsides compared to Saxton Hale, who seems to make a good base template (except comparatively to Vagineer/Easter Bunny as far as I know, who maybe could actually use nerfs?) -- CBS has ranged attacks but weak rage, HHH can't super jump, but can climb and teleport.

    If a Hale is unlucky enough to be put in the ring on something like vsh_Jurassic or the first stage of vsh_Toys and isn't HHH, they're pretty boned by snipers, as reaching them would be incredibly difficult in many cases. By letting the hale pick their boss, it would both force red team to get creative rather than have 8 snipers on the team and allow all Hales an equal shot at performance rather than leave it up entirely to chance.

    vsh_urban_works is another good example, where most of the team would rather go sniper or market gardener soldier. By allowing hales to pick, things could get interesting through the hale being forced to choose HHH to hunt and counter snipers or CBS to shoot down the onslaught of soldiers.


    Imo nerfing a lot of these weapons, such as baby face, loose cannon, and the sniper rifle is the pussy way out. You can easily get around most of these weapons by thinking on your feet. It'd be dumbing down and babying players to cut short on the red team's fun.

    Besides, all maps already have their metas as I've stated before with Jurassic, Toys, and Urban. By allowing boss picking, you'd turn the maps' single meta into a selection of multiple countermetas for people to decide on and work with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer Sufficiently Lethal Scout Contributor

    Steam:

    That's actually a very good solution, I never even thought of that! This is actually a better solution imo, so like you said I think being able to choose the boss you play as would be much, MUCH better. +1 for this instead.
     
    • Confusing Confusing x 1
  9. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Sure, being able to pick a boss is another part of VSH that needs to be considered, and their map rotation is incredibly bad. But no matter what hale you have, those weapons allow you to get an extreme advantage over all of the hales. Mantreads is a good example, where you can launch yourself to the top of the map, then get a market garden with hardly any fall damage. It isn’t the pussy way out; these weapons have been needing a nerf ever since they were last updated to these states. Can any other hale get a baby face’s blaster scout at the moment that can aim? Maybe the easter bunny, but then you would be choosing one hale to counter 1 to 4 scouts. You still can’t counter snipers with any hale but HHH; and even then, snipers can hit hale laterally so they can’t climb in the direction they want to. The only way would be to teleport, which is glitched so that you get stuck inside of them.
    I’m not saying hale doesn’t need a buff, not at all. But these weapons, buffed hale or not, give unfair advantages that keep the game from being balanced. And the reality is that whoever uses these weapons are always the ones that are at the top of the leaderboard, because of how unbalanced they are. They’re the ones that are ‘pussies’, especailly the BBB scouts.
    And that applies to the Battalion, too; any hale, no matter what, will have a VERY hard time killing anyone if there are 4 soldiers with The Direct Hit and Battalion. I just saw it today mutliple times; in-fact, I had to deal with 5 of them. I could only kill the strays that weren’t bunched up around the soldiers, ubering them and making any attempt to get them useless. And that happens to every hale that has to face 1, or especially more than one, Battalion soldier; they get frustrated, because they know it’s unfair. Same thing with everyone else that uses those weapons.
    Limits would solve the issue of soldier overflow, but it still would not solve the abuse of these unbalanced weapons. The point is that you need to figure out what is making people think that the gamemode is unfair for hales, address it, and present solutions. And I did. Hale sure does need some changes, but even without Hale getting changes, these improvements to the weapon system will make the game more fun for everyone. It will make people actually have to strategize, rather than people just rushing to get as many hits as possible like a cookie clicker.
    And neither am I saying “LETS NERF EVERYONE’S WEAPONS SO HALE CAN WIN MUCH EASIER!” That is far from the truth. I am not on a side of “Make Hale easier”, or “Make Red Team easier”. Frankly, I reset my queue so I don’t have to deal with these weapon issues. But even then, when I see someone on my team abuse one of these weapons to get ridiculous damage I get pissed at them, because they’re being ‘pussies’ and not allowing the hale to fight back at all. And I get especially pissed when they get top damage from using them all the time.
    And yes, the map rotation is horrible because skial does not tend to listen to what we say, as in, “These maps make it impossible for Hale to win, don’t add them!” Or, “This map is great, and people still play it all the time! What are you talking about when you say that the population is too low? Don’t remove it!” And this needs to be addressed publicly by them very badly. But these weapons, on any map, completely get rid of any skill involved.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  10. Meowcenary

    Meowcenary TF2 Admin Contributor

    Steam:

    Giving my two cents:

    Battalions back up is easy to deal with. I jump away and focus my efforts elsewhere until the buff goes away. Moving away from the soldier with the battalions backup renders it effectively useless, same with ubers

    I'm probably bias since I'm a absolutely disgusting loose cannon main (I'm sorry guys) but double donking hale is rather difficult and you can easily deal with loose cannons with some basic game play tactics. When I'm hale I move unprediactably and I can easily close in on them. The only time they're a issue for me is when they're on a ledge of sorts but that's super easy to deal with. I hate using this phrase but its a "git gud" situation. And being able to launch themselves away is something you can only do once or twice. It does massive damage to you, including fall damage when you use it to retreat. They can't run for long if they're launching themselves around.

    The sniper problem is also a map problem IMO. The stupidly hard to reach spots need to be made a bit easier to access on the problem maps
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Focusing somewhere else is a good strategy, and most competent hales do it. But when multiple Battalion soldiers, each with another rage, work together? Totally unbeatable, and it has been happening a whole lot recently when I’m on, which is a whole lot of the day. People do it because they know it makes the Red Team almost unstoppable. The problem is especially bad on a small map like vsh_rockslide, or military.
    Loose Cannons are hard to double donk, but even if you don’t donk there is ridiculous knockback. If you ever have seen someone as demo with Loose Cannon play on vsh_warehouse, it’s a great example. Someone camping in a small rectangular area, where you can’t move anywhere except forward, and the demo can just keep knocking you back until you give up. And while this does tie into a map issue, it’s still done anywhere else. A good Loose Cannon demo, like yourself, easily knocks back Hale with both the knockback from the bomb AND the donk. Having that much knockback from the Loose Cannon is ridiculous, unless it had a lower ammo count (And yes, it does contradict what I said before. I’m trying to see what would really work best). And why not just have it stop hale from moving for a second, like a sniper shot does at the moment when it isn’t a donk? Then, you would actually have to think about wether the bomb is worth it or not. And on a lot of maps, there is plently of health packs that people just go back and forth Loose Cannon shooting, which you would think would be a map issue, but that issue is on almost all of the maps in the rotation at the moment.
    And reguarding the map rotation issues? To be frank, it hasn’t gotten even remotely better in years. It’s just gotten worse, with all of the maps focused on the Red Team having a fun experience while Hale suffers tremendously. So I’ve given up on trying to ask for that even more, let alone seeing other people on the forums try with little success. If the map rotation doesn’t change from it’s “Change by map popularity chart” system, which I doubt it will, changing the Sniper ammo count to be lower or maybe even making wall climbing the slightest bit more damaging would ease a lot of the tension that happens because of people being unable to get to snipers. And the problem with that system is that a lot of people leave if they can’t win, which leaves the people that just play for the sake of having fun in a game straight up pissed when a good map is removed in replacement for a horrible map that is put there only for Red Team’s amusement.
    (Also, I’m sorry if I don’t seem too clear on some things. I’ve always been bad at discussions and friendly arguments, and that’s just how I am; it’s just hard for me to express what I know is the right thing into a good and convincing manner for example, what I mean by the map rotation getting worse and worse is that the system is flawed. People will join because they know how to get a guranteed win on these maps, and leave when they have a hard time. It’s what happened to many, many good, enjoyable, and balanced maps on this gamemode; people want to feel like it will be easy. If not, a lot of those people will leave until a map they know they can win on appears.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  12. Wheyloffle

    Wheyloffle Unremarkable User

    Never trying to discredit you tho, Rocko, but here's something you may want to kno.

    I've played every single class on VSH, and you can get top damage with every single one if you play your cards right. It's not that the ones who get to the top of the scoreboard are using OP weapons. It's the fact that those players are good as shit. The closest one I'd say is actually using OP weapons are snipers, but usually it's on the maps that I mentioned (Jurassic, Toys, Urban) that are wicked spacious and/or require hales to make multiple jumps while being incredibly exposed; by that point I'd say remove/edit the maps to be less ridiculous or put a class limit on sniper if Skial intends to add more of them.


    I agree with Meowcenary in the way that you'll need to think outside the box to destroy certain annoying sub classes like BBB scout and loose cannon demo.

    'Rocket' jumping with the loose cannon already subtracts a lot of health, so if you keep on the pesky demoman, you'll be set. Instead of running at a BBB scout (which you can eventually run them into a wall), try jumping onto them and punching them that way. Mantread/Market Garden soldiers always come to you to do damage, so just go to a more secluded part of the map and move when the whole red team finally arrives, keep an eye on the sky, and, if you're attentive enough, few will land a hit on you and your soldier problem just disposed of itself. There are plenty of ways of dealing with these pests.


    I've actually been considering making my own map for Skial's VSH sometime this summer that would hopefully avoid all these issues while having a little slice of heaven for every class. It honestly seems like the quickest solution towards getting rid of a lot of these problems; faster than waiting on someone to update the gamemode at least lol

    Maybe you'd like to try that out? Everyone loves fresh maps :D (except convoy wtf)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    I’ve been on here for a very long time, and I’m almost always at the top of the scoreboard (I’m really trying to say that in a way that doesn’t seem like I’m bragging), so I already know you can get top damage with any class and it is far from impossible to do so. And I know all of these strategies, but it’s clearly not the point I’m making. So not to be rude, but I would rather not have someone re-explain to me how things work when I clearly know how they do. The weapons I’m talking about let people play with hardly any skill but the ability to be a little smarter than others, and get damage equal to that of a good player trying their hardest. All the while, hale is not able to do anything except try to use those strategies, but a competent player knows these strategies and can do easy steps to avoid them. BBB scouts can just hit you with a few bullets from two clips while you’re in the air, and you’ll miss them due to both the knockback and the boost. That’s why the decrease in ammo and in the clip makes sense; they can’t do that without risking valuable ammo.
    Jumping with the Loose Cannon is pretty powerful even if you lose that much health; especially when you have a shield, and charge through the map. But that doesn’t matter when they can very easily land on a health kit. Like I said, it’s not that people want these nerfs because “It’s hard to deal with them, and takes actual skill to do so”, it’s because it is just plain unfair and frustrating to hale.
    If you made a map that doesn’t have the many issues that every other map has, sure! People would love it. But if every single map had these weapon changes, it would actually make it more difficult to rocket jump through the air willy-nilly, get market gardens, rocket jump onto a med-kit that gives you full health, and repeat the same process over, and over, and over again until you screw up. And when a gamemode relies more-so on one side screwing up, rather than the other side, being Hale, being more skilled and knowing how to handle them, it’s a major issue. The balancing of these weapons would really make both sides have to think outside of the box more to get the once overpowered classes, which now may each have different strategies rather than everyone doing the same strategy because they know it’s the most effective one.
     
  14. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer Sufficiently Lethal Scout Contributor

    Steam:

    Does anyone else have a vote on this idea?
     
  15. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Also, reguarding the Baby Face’s Blaster: People can abuse it by using the Boston Basher. The lower the health they have, the higher the ROF they have. This makes it even more difficult and unfair.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Chairius™

    Chairius™ Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    -1 to the loose cannon and battalions, seem like dumb nerfs, +1 to everything else
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    How exactly is the battalion a dumb nerf? If a soldier can gain an extreme damage reduction for him and everyone around him in two rockets, it’s ridiculous. If it was 4 hits, it would actually be something worth saving rather than just spamming it. Sure, you can jump away; but a good soldier will just get it again in less than a minute, and spam it with the half-zatochi.
     
  18. Chairius™

    Chairius™ Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    >using a supportive banner over extreme jumping abilities and extreme air control or extremely reduced rocket jump damage.

    don't even get me started on how bad the shotgun is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Chairius™

    Chairius™ Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    personally i think the force-a-nature needs a nerf, but eh
     
  20. RockoRango

    RockoRango Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    They choose the banner that gives makes people take 6 hits to kill, and is activated with 2 hits from a rocket. I don’t see that as fair in any way.
     
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