New VSH's Ranking System

[zaf]

I've been discussing the current ranking system with several regulars and we all agree that it's basically... useless.
All of the current top 10 players would in most eyes not even be considered good players, which is caused by the way you advance in rank.
Currently it's based on round wins, which unfortunately means even the most useless players spycrabbing in a corner or spamming M2 pyro's doing no damage will STILL advance up in rank, so long they're on the server playing.
So basically just like the previous ranking system, rank 1 is pretty much the guy who plays the most on the server, which just doesn't make it very competitive.

I'd guarantee making the ranking system a tad more competitive would increase gametime from many regulars, who might actually care about the rank.

It would be as simple as to change it into most overall damage, which still isn't very competitive but would still be a great improvement.
I'd suggest doing something like % damage done of hales health per round, which would make it extremely competitive and would work as K/D but vsh style.

Ideas are welcome

 

[Yuuki]

Medics waiting for the last round? I've never seen that before and scouts? not really either usually the hale just has a hard time catching them and ends up with them last.
Sure there's gonna be a BFB scout waiting till the end, but they usually end up getting raged anyways.

im not talking about medics im talking about soldiers with mantreads who like only run

 

[Maddo]

Yeah and that's why we don't want to encourage more of that.

It wouldn't encourage anything different, those who play for stat ranking would need damage, no matter which way you look at it stats generally dont work because they always end up showing who plays the most.

I already talked about that on my first reply to you and yes that is a downside, but it's fixable
"Downsides such as completely new players joining and only playing 1 round where they do 10k could be removed by setting a requirement of playing atleast 10 rounds etc."

So they play 11 rounds and jump to the top of the stats? same thing would happen.
It would all be good for Skial as it would encourage more playtime, but it will not show who is actually better at the game - too many variables to run a stat based system on.
Im +1 for tweaking the stats as it seems to be an issue as mentioned, but what you got to realise is that stats have always ended up being cumulative as they cannot cope with the amount of variables involved. Just seems to me the cumulative error on this one is that AFK's can rank high for doing jack shit.

 

[zaf]

It wouldn't encourage anything different, those who play for stat ranking would need damage, no matter which way you look at it stats generally dont work because they always end up showing who plays the most.

So they play 11 rounds and jump to the top of the stats? same thing would happen.
It would all be good for Skial as it would encourage more playtime, but it will not show who is actually better at the game - too many variables to run a stat based system on.
Im +1 for tweaking the stats as it seems to be an issue as mentioned, but what you got to realise is that stats have always ended up being cumulative as they cannot cope with the amount of variables involved. Just seems to me the cumulative error on this one is that AFK's can rank high for doing jack shit.

They'd jump to the top if they did consistantly high damage all 10 rounds yeah.

 

[zaf]

They'd jump to the top if they did consistantly high damage all 10 rounds yeah.

I mean literally most other first person shooters rely on using K/D type ranking system, so i don't see why it wouldnt work out on vsh.
Again tho as i said even just overall damage would be an improvement, while still being cumulative.

 

[Maddo]

I mean literally most other first person shooters rely on using K/D type ranking system, so i don't see why it wouldnt work out on vsh.
Again tho as i said even just overall damage would be an improvement, while still bieng cumulative.

I agree it would be better, but you will always have someone say that stats aren't fair because they don't take into account "xyz" Just like Nobody will say "I help out a lot by airblasting hale, even though I don't do damage".
I expect if this is implemented as you say, certain classes will dominate the stats, then people will start asking for tweaks on other certain classes for balance purposes.

 

[Ijikaru]

Im mostly talking about NY Military Arena where theres always engis getting 1k and soldiers (good and bad) getting 1k or 2k

1k or 2k isn't alot when I play medic I do 3000-5000 per game

 

[Yuuki]

1k or 2k isn't alot when I play medic I do 3000-5000 per game

eh its enough to out dmg like scouts and some other classes so people who are actually good at them get out dmged by someone who barley knows soldier

 

[Ijikaru]

The system should make a rank with the K/D ratio / Your dps / Your numbers of headshots / Your numbers of ubercharge and maybe the heal

 

[Ijikaru]

eh its enough to out dmg like scouts and some other classes so people who are actually good at them get out dmged by someone who barley knows soldier

I mean why playing scout then... if you don't have crits / stomps you won't do alot of damage and we are talking about every VSH maps so ye on military soldier is powerfull even maybe 2 powerfull in my eyes but still on other maps where there isn't alot of thing to heal scout can do more damage than soldiers ^^.

 

[zaf]

I agree it would be better, but you will always have someone say that stats aren't fair because they don't take into account "xyz" Just like Nobody will say "I help out a lot by airblasting hale, even though I don't do damage".
I expect if this is implemented as you say, certain classes will dominate the stats, then people will start asking for tweaks on other certain classes for balance purposes.

It's their own fault not doing damage as every class can do tons of damage, pyro included.

 

[Yuuki]

I mean why playing scout then... if you don't have crits / stomps you won't do alot of damage and we are talking about every VSH maps so ye on military soldier is powerfull even maybe 2 powerfull in my eyes but still on other maps where there isn't alot of thing to heal scout can do more damage than soldiers ^^.

well remember that all VSH ranks match up so if someone just plays soldier in NYMA or EUMA then they can get a really high rank

 

[zaf]

I get what you're all are saying. There's going to be faults with almost every system. That being said, i still believe the K/D style approach is the best solution and would make it a lot more competitive.

 

[Mumbus]

+1

 

[LazyAss]

+1 I went to rank 300 to 34 in the last 4 days, and I barely tried as MG soldier or Kunai Spy

 

[Bottiger]

It wouldn't encourage anything different, those who play for stat ranking would need damage, no matter which way you look at it stats generally dont work because they always end up showing who plays the most.

That is the flaw for most ranking systems, but our original tf2 ranking system did not reward those who played the most https://www.skial.com/threads/new-rating-and-balance-system.55615/. It is still being used but it only works for vanilla TF2 where the round ends in a reasonable amount of time which unfortunately does not include the most popular servers we have left like 2fort and turbine.

The main reason why I created this new system was to encourage people to play more. So trying to make it entirely skill based is not something that I want to do, even if it was possible.

All the major games do this. They give you a hidden skill rating for match making and then the publicly displayed rating is something that you can grind for. If you just instantly reach your true rating, most people would just stop playing.

I don't believe changing ranking to damage is going to be a major improvement.

• You can still farm/grind damage.
• Someone could farm damage on an empty server by letting Hale hit them and healing up, or an idle Hale letting his friend hit him.
• Some classes do more damage than others.
• It discourages players from doing things to help win that does not do damage, like air-blasting or healing.
• If you only count damage to Hale, you only encourage good human play which is not a complete indicator of skill because Hales lose most of the time. It would also penalize people who prefer to play Hale (as rare as that may be).
• Damage done as Hale is not equivalent to damage done as a human so then we'd have to figure out how to balance human vs Hale damage if that's even possible.

Our current system isn't perfect, but neither is damage done, and I don't think it would be an improvement.

 

[Maddo]

That is the flaw for most ranking systems, but our original tf2 ranking system did not reward those who played the most https://www.skial.com/threads/new-rating-and-balance-system.55615/. It is still being used but it only works for vanilla TF2 where the round ends in a reasonable amount of time which unfortunately does not include the most popular servers we have left like 2fort and turbine.

The main reason why I created this new system was to encourage people to play more. So trying to make it entirely skill based is not something that I want to do, even if it was possible.

All the major games do this. They give you a hidden skill rating for match making and then the publicly displayed rating is something that you can grind for. If you just instantly reach your true rating, most people would just stop playing.

I don't believe changing ranking to damage is going to be a major improvement.

• 
  You can still farm/grind damage.
  Someone could farm damage on an empty server by letting Hale hit them and healing up, or an idle Hale letting his friend hit him.
  Some classes do more damage than others.
  It discourages players from doing things to help win that does not do damage, like air-blasting or healing.
  If you only count damage to Hale, you only encourage good human play which is not a complete indicator of skill because Hales lose most of the time. It would also penalize people who prefer to play Hale (as rare as that may be).
  Damage done as Hale is not equivalent to damage done as a human so then we'd have to figure out how to balance human vs Hale damage if that's even possible.

Our current system isn't perfect, but neither is damage done, and I don't think it would be an improvement.

I concur, this is basically what I said, except you have elaborated a lot more to the mechanics and your intentions behind it all.
The stats for Hale do say "Time played" and as such do not propose a skill rating. I am presuming from the OP that this includes AFK time, perhaps if AFK time was eliminated it might ease the concerns of some.
I cannot comment on the TF2 stats you have built as I do not know the complete formula behind it, but I would imagine it's fairly complex.

 

[zaf]

That is the flaw for most ranking systems, but our original tf2 ranking system did not reward those who played the most https://www.skial.com/threads/new-rating-and-balance-system.55615/. It is still being used but it only works for vanilla TF2 where the round ends in a reasonable amount of time which unfortunately does not include the most popular servers we have left like 2fort and turbine.

The main reason why I created this new system was to encourage people to play more. So trying to make it entirely skill based is not something that I want to do, even if it was possible.

All the major games do this. They give you a hidden skill rating for match making and then the publicly displayed rating is something that you can grind for. If you just instantly reach your true rating, most people would just stop playing.

I don't believe changing ranking to damage is going to be a major improvement

• You can still farm/grind damage.
  Someone could farm damage on an empty server by letting Hale hit them and healing up, or an idle Hale letting his friend hit him.
  Some classes do more damage than others.
  It discourages players from doing things to help win that does not do damage, like air-blasting or healing.
  If you only count damage to Hale, you only encourage good human play which is not a complete indicator of skill because Hales lose most of the time. It would also penalize people who prefer to play Hale (as rare as that may be).
  Damage done as Hale is not equivalent to damage done as a human so then we'd have to figure out how to balance human vs Hale damage if that's even possible.

Our current system isn't perfect, but neither is damage done, and I don't think it would be an improvement.

I'll try to give my opinion on each of your arguments.

- Farming will almost always be a problem yes, however it's harder farming damage as people could only do it with low playercount, which means hale will have less HP. However with the current system a round win is a round win, no matter the player count.
You could change it from damage to points instead, since hale only gets points from killing and not the damage he does.

- Some classes do more damage than others? Depends on how good the individual is to each class, so i don't know about that.

- Discouraging players from airblasting constantly would just be a benefit as people are quite annoyed with the amount of M2 spamming Pyro. Instead they might actually go shotgun pyro and be useful while airblasting a bit.
Healing as medic still gives you damage as you get the damage from the player you're healing, also medics usually go combat medic anyways.

- You can also use points instead of damage, since you gain points from damage and hale gets points from kills, so it would still benefit players to play hale.

So basically ranking by points would kinda be the same as ranking by damage and would still benefit the hales.

 

[Keith]

+1, it should be based on damage/heal points and kills as hale, but if it is possible, it should be disabled before x amount of people joins the server, so people can't farm their ranks.

 

[Ijikaru]

+1, it should be based on damage/heal points and kills as hale, but if it is possible, it should be disabled before x amount of people joins the server, so people can't farm their ranks.

You are a god and you literally said everything.

 

[zaf]

+1, it should be based on damage/heal points and kills as hale, but if it is possible, it should be disabled before x amount of people joins the server, so people can't farm their ranks.

I agree, but bottiger has to be able to do it and mixing up different things to form a ranking system sounds like a lot of work.