Approved Modify/remove the rule regarding insults to gender and sexual orientation

[ly_dee]

I initially wanted the rule to be removed but it'd make skial a homophobic and sexist community..

The rule is too vague. I've never seen an admin punish someone for insulting a female, for instance. Everytime someone reports a person for sexism/discrimination (which is rare), most admins say "client mute". So why is there a rule in the first place? You should specify exactly what is meant by insults, just like how you specified what racism is by providing examples.

When people type in !rules or go on skial.com to check the server rules they see that insults to gender and sexual orientations are against the rules. Insults means what it means. So if we followed that guideline, any kind of insult would be worth reporting. Then admins would be overwhelmed by the amount of reports from fragile souls that can't handle trash talks.

It's tricky to enforce such a rule due to the degree of the insults, so at least make it clear once and for all so nobody brings this topic up again and makes a debate about it. Players are not familiar with skial's policy on the matter. They don't know what is considered "serious insults". You need to inform them better. Maybe there is a reason why people don't even bother reporting cases of insults because they always end up being declined. It can be frustrating as they think they're doing good by reporting something that is against the rules by definition but then get told that it's not "serious" enough. So maybe having something like

Racism and other insults to gender, religion and sexual orientation. Does not include discussion of why it is against the rules.​

• Any form of the word nigger (nigga, nigg, etc.) is not allowed even if you are just quoting a rap song or you are black, to prevent racists and kids using the same excuse.
• Generic insults are allowed (faggot, whore, etc.)
• Insults like "you cock thirsty slut shouldn't play video games and should go clean your house instead then spread your legs afterwards so your bf can reward you for your good work", "don't use your mic you fucking queer, you're spreading aids to all the people in the server because of all the cocks that have entered your nasty asshole. You faggots need to die for the straight people to live in a better place", etc. may result in silences.

would be better.

EDIT: to sum up, either modify by adding at least one bullet point to clarify, because skial is not enforcing the rule whatsoever, or even remove it completely.

 

[185db]

I'm personally for people being allowed to say what they want, if they want to look like an idiot let them. I find it annoying as hell when people insult anyone for random reasons, but I have yet to meet someone who really takes it to heart. It really is a case by case thing.

On the other hand, the rule does specifically state "insults to gender" not "discrimination of genders" so technically all of this stuff should warrent a punishment. I think just something along the lines of "no racism, sexism or religous bigotry is allowed" would be great.

 

[Fairnessplease]

If this would be against the rules, then Porn Sprays should be against the rules to, because it is "Discriminating" against women. -1.

Get Thicker skin.

 

[Party Chocobo]

This is what happens. Once a someone who disagrees with you, the whole train of "FRIENDS" on the internet disagrees and bashes you.
WELCOME TO THE CURRENT YEAR, THE TIME TELLING LIBERAL FAGGOT.

Sounds like someone is getting sensitive over words

 

[Blade D_Hero]

I honestly would get rid of the silenceable offenses that have to do with calling someone a slur (aside from nigger because that's pretty low class).

Like people ask me to silence someone because he kept telling her "your vulva smell." The rule regarding insults towards sex/orientation is entirely unnecessary, and I bet you that out of 1000 silences on Sourcebans, not ten of them are due to sexual insults or the like.

Hell, 95% of our silences is because someone said "my nigga" or something innocent like that, which is also a rule I wouldn't mind getting rid of. Legit no one has ever been offended by someone saying nigga (I understand nigger because that's considered a pretty brutal racial slur), and the argument we have always had is "they're the same thing." I don't think they are, and I think we should be more lax with silencing people for saying that.

A little off topic, but just my two cents towards one of the more silly rules I think we have. In general, I would +1 for a removal of insults to gender/sexual orientation. I would even go as far as to say that we would only silence for racial slurs, not street slang people use as a synonym for friend.

 

[RMSniper]

Are we done flaming this thread yet? Take it to unmod. Seriously. You all have made your opinions heard, and now you're talking about Internet bashing, which has zero to do with this suggestion.

 

[ly_dee]

Insults are not illegal, and how offended people get is pretty subjective. There is always client mute / vote mute / vote ban / report / or just telling people to plain and simple, "shut the fuck up bitch"
Basically, there is no point trying to cover every scenario in the rules when the admin are diligent enough in dealing with toxic players in a democratic and diplomatic way.
Insulting someone by berating their gender is not sexism, it is not discriminatory. People need thicker skins.

Agreed. Then why is the rule there? Remove it, plain and simple.

 

[Fairnessplease]

Agreed. Then why is the rule there? Remove it, plain and simple.

The point I am trying to make, and for as I am concerned, people can dumb rate me if they want. Never has anyone been banned by an insult by Gender Insults, because Insults are ALLOWED as long as it's not racist.

I don't see an issue, I called people "Faggots who should die" and never have been silenced or banned by it, so why is it an issue? If people are really offended by it, get thicker skin or use the in-client mute menu. Because if this were a rule, then porn sprays would get banned to. As simple as that, because "it's an insult to gender" People seem not to understand. Thank you.

Insults are allowed in-game, no matter what word your using as long as it's not intended to be racist.

Your contradicting your self when you say insults are allowed, but you can't use that specific insult in a sentence. I don't get your mentality, saying that "Faggot/ Kitchen whore" is allowed but saying "Faggot cock sucker queer should not use the mic, back to the kitchen" is not allowed. That's silly.

This is an insult, I agree, but insults are NOT against the rules. Racism IS. If someone is bothering you with these insults, mute them, or get thicker skin. For that, I'm afraid I don't agree with your suggestion.

 

[T-Wayne]

Alright. After reading this thread and most of it was crapposts sadly I will insert a fresh thought and my unheard opinion.
The rule being there is a good thing. The interpretation of what is to be classified or not is a bad thing.

I will give an example here.
Somebody is going to insult ly_dee based on her gender, saying "she belongs in the kitchen to make me some sandviches" or "she sucks d just as much as much as my vacuum cleaner" (please do not take offense, just examples).

The problem is starting here, clearly this is aimed at her being a female, so it clearly is gender-related. However, personally I would never mute that. Simply because I think that person saying that is an idiot and it falls into the general insult category. It's craptalk, and I do not find that offensive enough to be punished. People are only going to get as much offended as they let other people get it to them, but clearly(!) this is not the solution to tell people. Anyways... another person might think of it differently.
And here we go, another admin, let's take @Deadfront for example (i am going to make the decision up, I do not know how he would react!) has some rather old values and thinks of this case different. He thinks this is something worth to mute for and proceeds to do that.
Now the dilemma starts in the interpretation of the rule. You see while I would think it is just craptalking and not even worth the consideration of a rule violation (forgive me ly_dee) another person might think it is.
You will never be able to have all of us be able to act only that "one" way except you really put up keywords like in the racism rule. That one is working, wether for good or for bad should be left out of discussion for the convenience of this thread.

My man @KillerZebra said, he wants the rule removed. Going by the way I would have reacted in that example situation I would have to agree with him at first. I think people that insult a religion or a gender are uneducated imbeciles. I have no desire to punish them over that kind of stuff because I don't think anything I have read so far was worth it or should be considered crapposting/general insulting in the chat.

On another note, @Maddo said insulting is not illegal. There will be people that don't feel their gender has been insulted in certain situations while others will be offended, the whole thing is pretty subjective indeed. I agree here with him, plus just as much as the execution of a punishment is pretty subjective.

As noted. The rule being there is awesome. The way it is being handled is poor. Maybe I am handling it poor myself but I am willing to improve.
Removing the rule would favor my opinion on punishing the whole thing because I think those are just "insults". Then again I would like to keep it because it is a crucial standard in our society, gaming community or not, that everyone should be respected as what he, she or it is.
My final note to remain is this, and I might be taking a shot here when I say:
The gender/religion/sexual orientation rule does not need more clarification, it is the admins, us, who need more clarification.

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Thank you for taking time reading through this mess, it is early in the morning. Any input that actually is useful is welcomed, be it pro or con.

 

[Maddo]

Agreed. Then why is the rule there? Remove it, plain and simple.

There needs to be some sort of guideline, if only to stop ban appeals becoming full blown debacles debating whether "the line has been crossed".
I personally think that people whose main intention is to act like cunts towards others and poison the atmosphere of the servers should be dealt with by admin, regardless of the technicality of the written rule. That said, insults to gender was, as far as I recall added as a knee jerk reaction to a situation, and as such hasn't stood the test of time.
I come to the conclusion that everyone here is saying the same thing in essence, that the rule is worded incorrectly. Can we have ideas as to what is better terminology to use?

 

[Maddo]

Are we done flaming this thread yet? Take it to unmod. Seriously. You all have made your opinions heard, and now you're talking about Internet bashing, which has zero to do with this suggestion.

In this case, orbiting the central point gives a good all round view of what people find acceptable, and how relevant the wording is in reality.

 

[Fairnessplease]

There needs to be some sort of guideline, if only to stop ban appeals becoming full blown debacles debating whether "the line has been crossed".
I personally think that people whose main intention is to act like cunts towards others and poison the atmosphere of the servers should be dealt with by admin, regardless of the technicality of the written rule. That said, insults to gender was, as far as I recall added as a knee jerk reaction to a situation, and as such hasn't stood the test of time.
I come to the conclusion that everyone here is saying the same thing in essence, that the rule is worded incorrectly. Can we have ideas as to what is better terminology to use?

Like you said, we're just going around in circles. The best thing in my opinion is leave it as it is, in all my time on Skial I have never seen anyone banned for insults based on gender. The only thing I've seen people banned for is intense racism. Making fun of gender is silly in this type of matter, if I call someone a bitch, then it falls under the category of insults. If I post a spray of a women cooking in a kitchen, it is obviously saying "women in kitchen", which falls under the category insults. Just because someone is poisoning the atmosphere in the game, it does not mean it should warrant to a ban because that person is actually not breaking the rules, but acting like a little cunt; to which I agree to whoever posted that. However, acting like a 12 years old Cunt spewing out insults should not warrant into a ban, because again, it's an INSULT. Whether it's based on gender; male or female.

Racism is a different story, I agree with people who use the N word in a bad way, no question there. I agree with some of the admins above such that people need Thicker Skins in the game, if they are really "mad/hurt" because of the insult, then client mute them. Not that hard, literally takes 1 second of your life to do it. People call me Whore, Slut, Kitchen Made... whatever is in the book, but I don't report them because it's an insult. I view the people who say these things are idiotic trolls/worthless who have nothing better to do, but to warrant them a ban for saying those things? I don't think so.

Really, just remove the rule lol. I literally use these "FAGGOT/WHORE/KITCHEN/QUEER" terms in my past 3000 hours on Skial on numerous accounts and I didn't get muted once, because I KNEW they were not against the rules, but were INSULTS. If someone is bothering you, use the damn client mute, don't get a period over it. Fine the way it is, the rule was implemented over 3 YEARS AGO, and OUT OF THE BLUE someone is noticing that now.. lol. No one has ever had issues on it because people know how to deal with idiots who insult like this, want to know how? They ignore them. I know right, amazing? I'll be back tomorrow night to follow up the amount of the train hate of dumb ratings I'll get, currently waiting for my 4k! :D

 

[T-Wayne]

There hardly will be a possible description of a rule that fits all cases, satisfies everybody and leaves no room for interpretation wether to punish it or not.

The only way I see it could be covered would be to punish insults in general and I am far from liking, nor supporting that idea. But that would leave no point of doubt when a player is being harrassed you know.

 

[ly_dee]

You see, (and i'm amazed that people still don't get it) i'm not at all questioning the admins' competence to deal with situations like that. Admins know what to do as they should. I'm gonna repeat myself once again, this is a players' perspective. They need better information even though most of them don't and won't read the rules. Some still do and some still use them to validate their arguments.

As i've said, i'm fully aware that admins rarely silence people for that offense. So why not leave it as it is, you ask? Again, there have been a few threads and reports in the past debating about sexism, harassment or just insults in general, the latest being that public nuisance thread. All of them are dumb and the rule is dumb.

>Player crouches and gives sandwich to the enemy
>Admin gives a warning and says friendlying is against the rules.
>Player says "oh really", let me check the rules. "Refusing to help advance your teams position". Ok, dealt with.

>Player starts using homophobic slurs
>Admin gives warning and says it's against the rules
>Player says "oh really, let me check the rules. "Insults to gender, religion, and sexual orientation may result in bans, silences, or other punishments. Ok, dealt with.

>Same player hears someone say to a girl "go back to where you belong bitch, in the kitchen" and proceeds to report that.
>Admin says it's just trash talk and they can client mute the person.
>Player says "skial has a rule that says insults to gender may result in a punishment, what are you dumb fucks saying now, make up your mind"

Introducing that rule was a mistake. Now it's there and it's not enforced because of the lack of clarification. Instead, players are told to client mute if their feelings are hurt. Players need to see, in black and white, what is or isn't allowed and not rely on what an admin "thinks" is crossing the line and not get told to client mute when in reality there is an actual rule. Again, all the other rules (except those that are more than obvious) have examples. This one doesn't and is too ambiguous.
When making this suggestion, i assumed bottiger wouldn't remove that rule. Otherwise i would have just suggested to remove it. So if we're keeping it then clarify it.

.I come to the conclusion that everyone here is saying the same thing in essence, that the rule is worded incorrectly. Can we have ideas as to what is better terminology to use?

There hardly will be a possible description of a rule that fits all cases, satisfies everybody and leaves no room for interpretation wether to punish it or not..

Exactly. Either someone come up with a better wording or just remove the rule because the way it is now makes zero sense.

 

[OG Steve]

You see, (and i'm amazed that people still don't get it) i'm not at all questioning the admins' competence to deal with situations like that. Admins know what to do as they should. I'm gonna repeat myself once again, this is a players' perspective. They need better information even though most of them don't and won't read the rules. Some still do and some still use them to validate their arguments.

As i've said, i'm fully aware that admins rarely silence people for that offense. So why not leave it as it is, you ask? Again, there have been a few threads and reports in the past debating about sexism, harassment or just insults in general, the latest being that public nuisance thread. All of them are dumb and the rule is dumb.

>Player crouches and gives sandwich to the enemy
>Admin gives a warning and says friendlying is against the rules.
>Player says "oh really", let me check the rules. "Refusing to help advance your teams position". Ok, dealt with.

>Player starts using homophobic slurs
>Admin gives warning and says it's against the rules
>Player says "oh really, let me check the rules. "Insults to gender, religion, and sexual orientation may result in bans, silences, or other punishments. Ok, dealt with.

>Same player hears someone say to a girl "go back to where you belong bitch, in the kitchen" and proceeds to report that.
>Admin says it's just trash talk and they can client mute the person.
>Player says "skial has a rule that says insults to gender may result in a punishment, what are you dumb fucks saying now, make up your mind"

Introducing that rule was a mistake. Now it's there and it's not enforced because of the lack of clarification. Instead, players are told to client mute if their feelings are hurt. Players need to see, in black and white, what is or isn't allowed and not rely on what an admin "thinks" is crossing the line and not get told to client mute when in reality there is an actual rule. Again, all the other rules (except those that are more than obvious) have examples. This one doesn't and is too ambiguous.
When making this suggestion, i assumed bottiger wouldn't remove that rule. Otherwise i would have just suggested to remove it. So if we're keeping it then clarify it.



Exactly. Either someone come up with a better wording or just remove the rule because the way it is now makes zero sense.

+1 please no one yell at me :doge:

 

[Luke]

>Player crouches and gives sandwich to the enemy
>Admin gives a warning and says friendlying is against the rules.
>Player says "oh really", let me check the rules. "Refusing to help advance your teams position". Ok, dealt with.

>Player starts using homophobic slurs
>Admin gives warning and says it's against the rules
>Player says "oh really, let me check the rules. "Insults to gender, religion, and sexual orientation may result in bans, silences, or other punishments. Ok, dealt with.

>Same player hears someone say to a girl "go back to where you belong bitch, in the kitchen" and proceeds to report that.
>Admin says it's just trash talk and they can client mute the person.
>Player says "skial has a rule that says insults to gender may result in a punishment, what are you dumb fucks saying now, make up your mind"

Rule either needs removing, or major clarification, +1
Clarification should include examples of sexism against women and men.

 

[Fairnessplease]

KillerZebra kills it;

"
I am not going to silence someone for that. You and selkies can just client mute him and then your feelings won't be hurt.
I don't mean to sound rude, but that is really all this is.
If he calls more votes on you without any proof might be able to silence him for vote abuse."

If someone called you a whore/slut, and your internet feelings where hurt by it, client mute them. I almost 100% guarantee you don't remove the rule and keep it as it is; even as changing the rule to make it more understandable; no admin here (excepts for a few feminists) will ban for that, because deep down they know it's just insults and can be easily countered by muting. I don't get how your feelings get hurt when there are porn sprays literally scattered of women bouncing boobs, dicks in their vaginas and yet your complaining about an insult. What kind of a feminist is that? If you ban insults from specifically gender, then it would make sense to ban insults in general, as T-Wayne said it. The idea is silly and stupid for an M RATED game.

I should be able to call someone a Bitch. Whore. Kitchen Maid. Dick Sucker. Pussy sucker. Pussy and Dick sucker. Dick and Pussy sucker. And all of those in one sentence. I'm sorry they hurt your feelings, way it is for the past 5 years

 

[Comanglia]

The rule does need some modification though.
Simple insults like

"You're a nigger" or "Fuck off faggot" or "Die whore" are pretty much just trash talk among gamers.

While hate speech shouldn't be allowed regardless of what the target audience is.
Yesterday I had to hear a kid be called a faggot for 10+minutes by 2 or 3 people, 1 of which was giving a long rant on how all gay people amount to nothing, and should be rounded and exterminated like the trash they are. 2 of these people then proceeded to tell the kid to kill himself because he was worthless, and then started chanting it.

I contacted Biggie about it, and basically all it amounted to was telling the kid how to mute these people. Which is really fucking stupid when you see people get silenced or ban for having "Nigg" or saying "you're a nigger" once and get banned or silenced.

 

[Fairnessplease]

The rule does need some modification though.
Simple insults like

"You're a nigger" or "Fuck off faggot" or "Die whore" are pretty much just trash talk among gamers.

While hate speech shouldn't be allowed regardless of what the target audience is.
Yesterday I had to hear a kid be called a faggot for 10+minutes by 2 or 3 people, 1 of which was giving a long rant on how all gay people amount to nothing, and should be rounded and exterminated like the trash they are. 2 of these people then proceeded to tell the kid to kill himself because he was worthless, and then started chanting it.

I contacted Biggie about it, and basically all it amounted to was telling the kid how to mute these people. Which is really fucking stupid when you see people get silenced or ban for having "Nigg" or saying "you're a nigger" once and get banned or silenced.

You don't know the rules, if you say the N word in anyway that's an automatic mute, even as in a friendly way. But saying Die whore is an INSULT. There is a fine line between Racism and Insults. If the kid is getting said those things, like Biggie said, Mute them, that's it. You can't mute for insults because if that were the case, then people would mute for almost all insults, such as Bitch, then eventually lead to removal of "discriminant" porn sprays. I don't get how this rule was implemented over 4 years and still, do this day, no one had an issue on it and all of a suddenly it comes up. Quite frankly, it's funny.

 

[Comanglia]

You don't know the rules, if you say the N word in anyway that's an automatic mute, even as in a friendly way. But saying Die whore is an INSULT. There is a fine line between Racism and Insults. If the kid is getting said those things, like Biggie said, Mute them, that's it. You can't mute for insults because if that were the case, then people would mute for almost all insults, such as Bitch, then eventually lead to removal of "discriminant" porn sprays. I don't get how this rule was implemented over 4 years and still, do this day, no one had an issue on it and all of a suddenly it comes up. Quite frankly, it's funny.

Their's a very big difference between insults and hate speech. Honestly not really sure if you read all of my post.

 

[Fairnessplease]

Their's a very big difference between insults and hate speech. Honestly not really sure if you read all of my post.

Don't need to, hate speech falls under the category of insults, and you is allowed in-game. You don't like it, mute the person. The only time hate speech is not allowed is when your spamming it... as in flooding the chat with it.