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Bottiger

Administrator
If you're trying to get a good opinion of Skial on reddit or with the tf2 people in general, it'll never happen. You're the Walmart of TF2 to them, and that's how you'll remain forever no matter what you do/change.

This sounds like a defeatist attitude to me. We didn't become the top TF2 community just by accepting things as they were. If I just gave up, lotusclan and saigns would have had their 200+ servers and Skial would not exist.

Yes there's a lot of negativity about us on reddit, but if we just give up, things will get worse. And they can get worse. You can't just depend on our historical dominance to keep the servers alive forever. Do you remember 2fort+ LA how nobody thought it would die and then it died in a month?

Why do other servers get away with having a toxicity rule then? If LoL and Blizzard can do it, why can't we?
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
This sounds like a defeatist attitude to me. We didn't become the top TF2 community just by accepting things as they were. If I just gave up, lotusclan and saigns would have had their 200+ servers and Skial would not exist.

Yes there's a lot of negativity about us on reddit, but if we just give up, things will get worse. And they can get worse. You can't just depend on our historical dominance to keep the servers alive forever. Do you remember 2fort+ LA how nobody thought it would die and then it died in a month?

Why do other servers get away with having a toxicity rule then? If LoL and Blizzard can do it, why can't we?

There just is a general negativity towards server groups that are massive. Skial doesn't deserve the bad rap it gets, but I fail to see how you banning people for toxicity is going to impact anything one way or another.

This is the way I see it:
Most of the people who constantly smear your servers don't actually play on it, and changes won't impact them.

People like to talk trash in TF2, the characters do it for you. Telling people they can't trash on other players is going to negatively impact people who currently play on, and enjoy your servers. You will be risking losing regulars to gain back randos who there is little chance care enough to even try you again.

I don't question your decision-making, even things I've found myself disagreeing with when you implemented, they turned out being the right call. you've kept Skial going through times that killed many other server groups, including quickplay. So, perhaps you're right and I'm wrong, but I'll list potential problems I see with it below.

You don't think if you started banning people for toxicity, you'd get them going to reddit or youtube and complaining that your admins banned them for no reason? "I was talking a little trash on an admin and he banned me" "They're so quick to ban on that server, you can't even BS with your friends anymore."

If someone overall is bringing nothing but headaches to you, and other players, do you really need a rule to just axe them? I think if an admin brings it to your attention, and you see nonstop problems from a person, a strict warning, that if ignored, lead to a ban is perfectly reasonable. But I'd want it escalated rather than just one singular admin being able to make the call.

Part of the reason all those years ago that made me start coming here, was an admin abusing his power on me because I made fun of his class (https://www.skial.com/threads/admin-abuse.8393/) Under a toxicity rule that ban would have been upheld because technically, I was trash-talking him. That would have lost me as a regular, and all the other regulars I've brought to the servers over the years.

I just don't think this will impact the people who badmouth the servers, and if anything, will lead to admin abuse complaints on top of it.
 
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Inferno Lord

TF2 Admin
Contributor
I don't know what else you can do, but I'm against actioning people for "toxicity" because most of the people who you will get reports from will be people cutting out context. Someone starts a fight with someone, gets the guy going, and then starts recording a demo, shows himself being harrassed etc. This will be majority of the "toxicity" reports. It's a bad precedent and I worry for Skial if this ends up getting seriously implemented.

As someone above stated, tightening some more rules about attacks on people's sexuality, gender, race etc. there's no problem there, but I am 100% against a blanket "toxicity" ban.
I stand by the idea that there shouldn’t be a rule in place for Toxicity but a general guideline against overbearing toxic behavior. It would be a welcome addition as a guideline, which we can hope players will try and maintain much like the rules of the sea in Sea of Thieves with an ability by an admin on-site to step in with the full context of a conversation to tell people to knock it off and give a possible punishment to such troublemakers who push things far beyond reasonable limits and those who retaliate against staff for trying to diffuse a problem which would be against the Skial rules of:
  • Complaining about the rules.
  • Complaining about the admins.
Relying strictly on reports is something I agree can easily be fraudulent compared to flat out saying slurs to people which is not permitted in any context on these servers. That is why it's one of the complicated things keeping it from being an easy rule.

If you're trying to get a good opinion of Skial on reddit or with the tf2 people in general, it'll never happen. You're the Walmart of TF2 to them, and that's how you'll remain forever no matter what you do/change.

I agree with Bott on this. Who says perception cannot change? Perception is dictated by the experiences and reputation of the player base that comes on and talks about it. A lot of the bad rep Skial gets is because of players who feel lenient with how they act or feel regularing on the servers that they play on with the small sub-communities that develop and the opinions of bigger figureheads in the wider community. Were it not for the negativity stigma with Skial, this wouldn't be a problem. It doesn't help if people join and see that the stigma is true. If more people openly discussed how Skial is actually decent then maybe it wouldn't get as much bad rep but that's few and far by a lot of the communities members. The most recent praise to come to Skial was from Uncle Dane in his latest Q&A vid saying how Skial servers were a huge part of his time enjoying the game through the Dustbowl server, he even recommended these servers alongside his! Servers can always be better for their community AND newcomers.

As Casual continues to falter Community servers will be here to pick up the pieces and provide a good environment to those players who want it. With respect to the community that has built up Skial some betterment does not mean Skial is worse off, in the long term it would do a lot of good for everyone. I would not be a regular of these servers for the last couple of years had I not met some great people to play alongside and meeting some great staff members who I can consider good friends of mine, who have shown that they do keep trouble out of these servers. Why shouldn't newcomers have that same experience when coming to Skial? Should their only perception be that all these servers have nothing but assholes who don't care about anyone? That would be unfair to those who put the effort to make these servers enjoyable for others. Why would anyone stick around were it not for the effort put into these servers and the great people we get to hang out to talk and frag with enjoying the game that is Team Fortress 2?
 

Seminal Inhalation

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Why do other servers get away with having a toxicity rule then? If LoL and Blizzard can do it, why can't we?

Skial will live on, but will be a shell of its former self and won't be long before it loses its "most popular tf2 community" status to someone else. You can do it if you want I guess since it is your servers, just saying get ready for Skial to lose its current popularity status and some of its servers due to player loss and people saying Skial is being "too coddling". Staff will also absolutely get picked on more often.


Another reason a lot of community servers died or were hurt was due to the "Meet Your Match" update which hurt countless community servers due to the layout change and made community server searching more obscured to the average player. Even I as a veteran TF2 player didn't realize community servers were still a thing after the update until a few months later when my friend told me how to find it. To this day I still see older TF2 players figuring out community servers are still around after the layout change. Even Skial lost quite a few players back then for a couple of years until the pandemic came and made it thrive again like exactly old times.


If people are making death threats, ban 'em.
If people are persistently telling others to kill themselves, ban 'em.
Unless the person being attacked is a hacker cuz fuck those guys with a rusty pole.
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
I stand by the idea that there shouldn’t be a rule in place for Toxicity but a general guideline against overbearing toxic behavior. It would be a welcome addition as a guideline, which we can hope players will try and maintain much like the rules of the sea in Sea of Thieves with an ability by an admin on-site to step in with the full context of a conversation to tell people to knock it off and give a possible punishment to such troublemakers who push things far beyond reasonable limits and those who retaliate against staff for trying to diffuse a problem which would be against the Skial rules of:
  • Complaining about the rules.
  • Complaining about the admins.
Relying strictly on reports is something I agree can easily be fraudulent compared to flat out saying slurs to people which is not permitted in any context on these servers. That is why it's one of the complicated things keeping it from being an easy rule.



I agree with Bott on this. Who says perception cannot change? Perception is dictated by the experiences and reputation of the player base that comes on and talks about it. A lot of the bad rep Skial gets is because of players who feel lenient with how they act or feel regularing on the servers that they play on with the small sub-communities that develop and the opinions of bigger figureheads in the wider community. Were it not for the negativity stigma with Skial, this wouldn't be a problem. It doesn't help if people join and see that the stigma is true. If more people openly discussed how Skial is actually decent then maybe it wouldn't get as much bad rep but that's few and far by a lot of the communities members. The most recent praise to come to Skial was from Uncle Dane in his latest Q&A vid saying how Skial servers were a huge part of his time enjoying the game through the Dustbowl server, he even recommended these servers alongside his! Servers can always be better for their community AND newcomers.

As Casual continues to falter Community servers will be here to pick up the pieces and provide a good environment to those players who want it. With respect to the community that has built up Skial some betterment does not mean Skial is worse off, in the long term it would do a lot of good for everyone. I would not be a regular of these servers for the last couple of years had I not met some great people to play alongside and meeting some great staff members who I can consider good friends of mine, who have shown that they do keep trouble out of these servers. Why shouldn't newcomers have that same experience when coming to Skial? Should their only perception be that all these servers have nothing but assholes who don't care about anyone? That would be unfair to those who put the effort to make these servers enjoyable for others. Why would anyone stick around were it not for the effort put into these servers and the great people we get to hang out to talk and frag with enjoying the game that is Team Fortress 2?

I won't bother trying to change your opinion in the second two paragraphs. You're unlikely to change mine, so I'm just going to bow out of that part.

The argument is against the idea that a rule would be implemented against "toxicity." Most people I've seen comment on this would have no problem with an extreme situation leading to a mute or whatnot. I just am hardcore against the idea that any admin could decide they were having a rough day and look for reasons to ban/mute people. Nothing needs to be written down for admins/bottiger to make the decision to remove a complete prick from the server. I'd rather it be a decision made with some gravitas if it was something that must be implemented.

So, I don't think I inherently disagree with most of what you're saying. I just don't want to see it be a rule. I don't want to be banned because I'm opting to talk a little trash and that person happens to be an admin, or an admin's friend.

You guys are overblowing this. He obviously doesn't mean general toxicity. It's meant for extreme toxicity.

Then it shouldn't need to be a rule. Extreme situations don't need a concrete rule. If someone brings nothing but problems to the servers, and the servers are better off without them? Send them on their way. A rule isn't needed in this situation.
 
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Maddo

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
Then it shouldn't need to be a rule. Extreme situations don't need a concrete rule. If someone brings nothing but problems to the servers, and the servers are better off without them? Send them on their way. A rule isn't needed in this situation.
This is the simplest solution.
Someone visits your house and starts pissing on your bed, you kick them out, you don't think "well I didn't tell them not to do that, so I'm at fault"
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
I just want to add, if we must put a rule against it here, I think keeping it simple something along the lines of

"Skial might action for other extreme situations, or continuous bad actors" or something like that wouldn't have too much complaint from me. But as I said above, I don't think you really need to even say it. I think most against this rule being implemented wouldn't be against people being booted who are nothing but pains in the asses.
 

gala

Moderator
Contributor
But where do you draw the line. If you leave it up to the mods/admins here they will each have their own line in the sand. And the incompetence of some of them will vary greatly.
Literal death threats, rape threats, other same level obscenities, extended harassment/stalking with a serious context and ill intent

But like Ant said
Then it shouldn't need to be a rule. Extreme situations don't need a concrete rule. If someone brings nothing but problems to the servers, and the servers are better off without them? Send them on their way. A rule isn't needed in this situation.

Because rule or not, I will still continue muting people like that even if certain individual will go on a reddit rant crying about admin abuse, post is now deleted but here's a link to the original content
https://www.unddit.com/r/tf2/comments/t5fp0c/skial_discussing_antitoxicity_rule_inclusion/
 
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Bottiger

Administrator
There just is a general negativity towards server groups that are massive. Skial doesn't deserve the bad rap it gets, but I fail to see how you banning people for toxicity is going to impact anything one way or another.

Skial will live on, but will be a shell of its former self and won't be long before it loses its "most popular tf2 community" status to someone else. You can do it if you want I guess since it is your servers, just saying get ready for Skial to lose its current popularity status and some of its servers due to player loss and people saying Skial is being "too coddling". Staff will also absolutely get picked on more often.

There is another group of servers that I will not name that has more servers than we do and almost as many players, that also has an anti-toxicity rule, and does not have people on reddit saying they are toxic.
 

Helius21

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
I would like to point out that most players, new and old, are ultimately picking servers to cater their literal ability to play the game. You do not join deathrun if you want to play on 2fort, you pick whichever servers caters to your play preferences. I did not join Skial due to a reputation, I joined because the regular communities I did play on died one by one, and Skial was just merely on the community list with more people.

The luxury of community servers is we can define what is and isn't apart of what can be done. Regardless of whether a server is friendly or toxic, if neither let you play the actual game you won't touch them.

Why would it matter then to have a toxicity rule? A 'friendlier' community does not immediately discourage a majority of the TF community from wanting to join say if that majority is particularly offended or disgusted by something a toxic community allows. A few bad apples might just be hellbent on whining, but overall they will join wherever the game is played. Chat doesn't change the ability to play the game no, but it does weed out who does and does not want to be here. If you know a community is going to call you racial slurs, and you don't like it, you aren't going to join. If you ARE a toxic person who enjoys that, but are mostly here to play the game, it won't really affect you much to join a community that is just going to punish you for your slur usage, so long as it does not literally affect your ability to play the game.

I do not sincerely believe a limit on toxicity, especially extreme versions, is going to at all keep people from joining Skial. Youtube has changed a lot of their policies and gutted lots of great content, yet people still try to upload there because it doesn't stop you from using it exactly for that; uploading videos. It evolved, and so must we if our reputation convinces people to find better places. The reasons big companies get away with it is because they offer their services to play their game or use their platforms, no matter what rules you throw on them people who like to use them will use them regardless, and either adhere to the rules or get banned anyway. It's not going to turn into a 'shell' unless the players here get offended and run off to other communities, which I doubt would occur unless they don't play Skial to play the game.

To have it all be admin interpretation DOES mean some people are going to get away with things that others don't. I have seen this with my own eyes playing, a player with a questionable name, 'DirtyGringo' is that racist? I know we have a rule on racial slurs and all, but even that has made me question the power of ones own perception; that user is a known regular who behaves himself, was not causing issues, and has played with other admins without issue- but just on that particular day, the admin that did happen to be there decided it was racist.

Are users who call themselves aimbotters via username subject to a ban? It doesn't look like it, but then if you change it just enough to look like a real advert or such, you get banned because you've been interpreted as trying to do just that, even if it was just a shitty joke.

This is not to argue against having any level of admin interpretation, but to warn as to how individuals without guidelines could easily make a mistake, not having meant harm but trying to just adhere to a vague idea of what is and isn't considered toxic. In those examples above, there are at least rules to help the admin in question make a choice and not have to really second guess their decision. Without any guideline, Skial remains the 'toxic' major community. If we had no rule to prevent racism, people would not join unless they were okay with that racism stuff, or worse, they DO join, come here, complain, then leave and spread their experience out like wildfire without all the context. Now that people can say Skial is okay with death threats, while also being able to call people like Gala an admin abuser on reddit for stopping said death threats, they will do so. The sooner that reaches the ears of malicious users who don't even play, the sooner they will use that against the community, where as a rule would allow bottiger to defend against such allegations.

It's better to be ugly and smell nice than to be ugly and smell like shit. People will still judge, but what they judge about you has to fit. If that person complains you smell like roses, because idk your perfume is scented, that does not stop other people from being near you unless they are hellbent on hating the smell of roses, which does not affect the majority whatsoever.

I also think it would let us free up some space on the server rules, making any redundant with a general toxicity rule like racism as that would just fall under the umbrella term
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
There is another group of servers that I will not name that has more servers than we do and almost as many players, that also has an anti-toxicity rule, and does not have people on reddit saying they are toxic.

I don't know of which you speak. But I can say I'd be hesitant to really even use chat if there was an anti-toxicity rule suddenly. As above, I like to talk trash playfully with people, and other times, argue with people. Part of the reason Skial is fun is the chat is active both voice/text. As well as the !ignore feature to not have to deal with someone being loud/obnoxious but not permanently muting them.

I can see it taking a downward slide in that sense if people are afraid they're going to get the axe for toxicity.

I'm not against you getting rid of malicious players. I think you should, quite frankly. But, I think putting it in black and white "you can't be toxic" is going to leave a lot of people unsure of how they can interact with people in a competitive game. Where is the line drawn between what's toxic, and what's banter? "Toxic" is an incredibly general term.

As Gala said, they muted someone who went completely overboard and there has been nothing but agreement with it. There wasn't a toxicity rule for that, but they were still able to do it. Part of the reason you stopped blanket banning micspammers now iirc is that if the server was enjoying it, there was no harm in it, and that votemute could take care of the situation.

I've enjoyed Skials hands-off approach to adminning, and I think a lot of your regulars probably agree too. I just think when you start adding more and more ways for some players to find themselves muted/banned, it's a negative. Both for admins, and for players.

The last thing on this, as Johnny said, this will end up being inconsistent more than likely because each admin will have a different tolerance. Skial is one of the last places that the admins are consistent, and I just would hate to see that end by having a rule that is open 100% to interpretation.

I would like to point out that most players, new and old, are ultimately picking servers to cater their literal ability to play the game. You do not join deathrun if you want to play on 2fort, you pick whichever servers caters to your play preferences. I did not join Skial due to a reputation, I joined because the regular communities I did play on died one by one, and Skial was just merely on the community list with more people.

The luxury of community servers is we can define what is and isn't apart of what can be done. Regardless of whether a server is friendly or toxic, if neither let you play the actual game you won't touch them.

Why would it matter then to have a toxicity rule? A 'friendlier' community does not immediately discourage a majority of the TF community from wanting to join say if that majority is particularly offended or disgusted by something a toxic community allows. A few bad apples might just be hellbent on whining, but overall they will join wherever the game is played. Chat doesn't change the ability to play the game no, but it does weed out who does and does not want to be here. If you know a community is going to call you racial slurs, and you don't like it, you aren't going to join. If you ARE a toxic person who enjoys that, but are mostly here to play the game, it won't really affect you much to join a community that is just going to punish you for your slur usage, so long as it does not literally affect your ability to play the game.

I do not sincerely believe a limit on toxicity, especially extreme versions, is going to at all keep people from joining Skial. Youtube has changed a lot of their policies and gutted lots of great content, yet people still try to upload there because it doesn't stop you from using it exactly for that; uploading videos. It evolved, and so must we if our reputation convinces people to find better places. The reasons big companies get away with it is because they offer their services to play their game or use their platforms, no matter what rules you throw on them people who like to use them will use them regardless, and either adhere to the rules or get banned anyway. It's not going to turn into a 'shell' unless the players here get offended and run off to other communities, which I doubt would occur unless they don't play Skial to play the game.

To have it all be admin interpretation DOES mean some people are going to get away with things that others don't. I have seen this with my own eyes playing, a player with a questionable name, 'DirtyGringo' is that racist? I know we have a rule on racial slurs and all, but even that has made me question the power of ones own perception; that user is a known regular who behaves himself, was not causing issues, and has played with other admins without issue- but just on that particular day, the admin that did happen to be there decided it was racist.

Are users who call themselves aimbotters via username subject to a ban? It doesn't look like it, but then if you change it just enough to look like a real advert or such, you get banned because you've been interpreted as trying to do just that, even if it was just a shitty joke.

This is not to argue against having any level of admin interpretation, but to warn as to how individuals without guidelines could easily make a mistake, not having meant harm but trying to just adhere to a vague idea of what is and isn't considered toxic. In those examples above, there are at least rules to help the admin in question make a choice and not have to really second guess their decision. Without any guideline, Skial remains the 'toxic' major community. If we had no rule to prevent racism, people would not join unless they were okay with that racism stuff, or worse, they DO join, come here, complain, then leave and spread their experience out like wildfire without all the context. Now that people can say Skial is okay with death threats, while also being able to call people like Gala an admin abuser on reddit for stopping said death threats, they will do so. The sooner that reaches the ears of malicious users who don't even play, the sooner they will use that against the community, where as a rule would allow bottiger to defend against such allegations.

It's better to be ugly and smell nice than to be ugly and smell like shit. People will still judge, but what they judge about you has to fit. If that person complains you smell like roses, because idk your perfume is scented, that does not stop other people from being near you unless they are hellbent on hating the smell of roses, which does not affect the majority whatsoever.

I also think it would let us free up some space on the server rules, making any redundant with a general toxicity rule like racism as that would just fall under the umbrella term

Most of the argument isn't against getting rid of the behavior, most of the argument is against having a rule that's going to be entirely too unclear to people.

Getting rid of "no racism" and replacing it with "no toxicity" is a bad idea. Concrete rules are good, blanket rules are bad. People should know 100% what's allowed and what isn't.
 
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Bottiger

Administrator
I don't know of which you speak. But I can say I'd be hesitant to really even use chat if there was an anti-toxicity rule suddenly. As above, I like to talk trash playfully with people, and other times, argue with people. Part of the reason Skial is fun is the chat is active both voice/text. As well as the !ignore feature to not have to deal with someone being loud/obnoxious but not permanently muting them.

They have a anti-toxicity rule and they have a large number of players, so arguments that it can't work for a large community doesn't hold. I've seen 0 complaints about their rule, while there are dozens of youtube videos with >30k views and dozens of people on reddit telling everyone that our servers are toxic and to avoid our servers.

Also the fact that blizzard and riot moderate player behavior for toxicity and being much bigger than we are tells us it is possible.

I know people are going to be as free in chat as before. But think about this, do you really need to talk shit to other people in the game? Does it really increase your enjoyment of the game that much to be able to do so? And if so, how many other people are you driving away? Is it worth it to drive away 10 people for the enjoyment of 1? I don't think so.
 
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Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
They have a anti-toxicity rule and they have a large number of players, so arguments that it can't work for a large community doesn't hold. I've seen 0 complaints about their rule, while there are dozens of youtube videos with >30k views and dozens of people on reddit telling everyone that our servers are toxic and to avoid our servers.

Also the fact that blizzard and riot moderate player behavior for toxicity and being much bigger than we are tells us it is possible.

I know people are going to be as free in chat as before. But think about this, do you really need to talk shit to other people in the game? Does it really increase your enjoyment of the game that much to be able to do so? And if so, how many other people are you driving away? Is it worth it to drive away 10 people for the enjoyment of 1? I don't think so.

I mean, yeah, I think when two people are trash-talking one another it makes the game more fun. I don't do it unless the person is doing it too, it's not like I pick randos to go after or something like that.

I'm not against the moderation idea, I'm simply against making a blanket rule that is open to large amounts of interpretation. "No toxicity" is not a clear rule. Perhaps "No targeted repeated harassment" or something like that would make me more comfortable.

I worry for consistency more than anything. What's ok when Jerma is in there for example, might not be OK when there's another admin whose name I don't know is in there. There's no question on the other rules. Any form of racism is banned, any form of bigotry is banned. This one, as worded doesn't follow the same simple, concrete logic as the others.

If there's a way you can make the rule without it being so unclear, I probably wouldn't be too hesitant.
 

Helius21

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
Most of the argument isn't against getting rid of the behavior, most of the argument is against having a rule that's going to be entirely too unclear to people.

Getting rid of "no racism" and replacing it with "no toxicity" is a bad idea. Concrete rules are good, blanket rules are bad. People should know 100% what's allowed and what isn't.
I think what I said there is indeed an unnecessary suggestion, I agree.

I do also agree with you on the troubles that could incur when trying to determine toxicity and such banter. It would be a shame to have to be worried about speaking at all, but if toxicity itself is subjective, why can the rule not be as well?

I think we should adopt a 'stand your ground' attitude over such a thing, it turns subjective into the opinion of the users involved individually. While this would encompass quite a lot more in what is considered rule breaking, it would only ever go over the line the second someone chooses to purposefully continue on being toxic to an individual that wants no part.

If someone has you disgruntled, you can make it clear to them that if they continue to go over their line with you and you alone, that you will retaliate. In this case? It's not shooting, but alerting the admins to your behavior. If the user is just generally annoying though, you can also just simply !ignore or mute them, but you can't go trying to stab at them because the convo they had with another user didn't escalate to your level until they break other rules like being racist or something like that.

It's no longer a question on which admin is on my side, it's the admin taking my raw evidence and seeing a continued disturbance, and thus reacting appropriately. If it's repeatedly happening even with mutes, the user is obviously not so caring about their talking privileges and can get the mutes they beg for.

I understand our opinions vary differently regarding this matter, so I think we will have to agree to disagree. But I think our common ground is not wanting any hard limit on a vague subject though, it's just too easy to screw up and until we meet that point we cannot guess what it could entail for Skial
 

Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
I think what I said there is indeed an unnecessary suggestion, I agree.

I do also agree with you on the troubles that could incur when trying to determine toxicity and such banter. It would be a shame to have to be worried about speaking at all, but if toxicity itself is subjective, why can the rule not be as well?

I think we should adopt a 'stand your ground' attitude over such a thing, it turns subjective into the opinion of the users involved individually. While this would encompass quite a lot more in what is considered rule breaking, it would only ever go over the line the second someone chooses to purposefully continue on being toxic to an individual that wants no part.

If someone has you disgruntled, you can make it clear to them that if they continue to go over their line with you and you alone, that you will retaliate. In this case? It's not shooting, but alerting the admins to your behavior. If the user is just generally annoying though, you can also just simply !ignore or mute them, but you can't go trying to stab at them because the convo they had with another user didn't escalate to your level until they break other rules like being racist or something like that.

It's no longer a question on which admin is on my side, it's the admin taking my raw evidence and seeing a continued disturbance, and thus reacting appropriately. If it's repeatedly happening even with mutes, the user is obviously not so caring about their talking privileges and can get the mutes they beg for.

I understand our opinions vary differently regarding this matter, so I think we will have to agree to disagree. But I think our common ground is not wanting any hard limit on a vague subject though, it's just too easy to screw up and until we meet that point we cannot guess what it could entail for Skial

Yeah, I'm with you on most of this honestly. Maybe I didn't make my only gripes clear, but I simply just don't like rules that aren't 100% clear.

I think the no racism/no bigotry thing is a perfect rule because there isn't potential confusion there. If someone tries to skirt by using like, A instead of the hard R, you still know the intent.

I just think hiccups will happen, as I said a few posts back, when someone is able to steer the toxicity. Like, for an example, let's say I hate a player and they hate me. I talk trash on them a bunch in VC, he starts trashing me back and then I start recording & acting innocent, if that were made in report form, and the other player had no demo protecting himself, he gets actioned and I don't.

If there's a way we can all figure out how it can be clear that it's only if you're repeatedly super malicious, or getting creepy stalker level over one particular player, my concerns are addressed just fine. I still don't think it's a necessary rule, because I've seen other people get themselves banned by going too overboard. But it's also not my server group, so it's not my decision. I am only voicing my concerns against blanket rules.
 
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Helius21

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
I just think hiccups will happen, as I said a few posts back, when someone is able to steer the toxicity. Like, for an example, let's say I hate a player and they hate me. I talk trash on them a bunch in VC, he starts trashing me back and then I start recording & acting innocent, if that were made in report form, and the other player had no demo protecting himself, he gets actioned and I don't.
I had not thought to consider the potential flaws in my suggestions, that is truly no better and just burdensome on the community. You have my apologies for completely missing your post.
 
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Antamania

Australian Skial God
Contributor
I had not thought to consider the potential flaws in my suggestions, that is truly no better and just burdensome on the community. You have my apologies for completely missing your post.

I doubt I'm 100% right here either. Bott is certainly right with the feelings of one vs the feelings of the many. And it is true that a lot of people in the server act like asses a lot. There certainly are people who join the servers with the simple goal of wanting to piss people off, that should certainly be discouraged.

Just a strong debate topic because there's pluses and minuses with keeping the status quo, or making a dramatic change like this. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, it's just a question of where in the middle.
 
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jacksonlachaine

Mildly Menacing Medic
Contributor
Thought I’d give a wee say in this whole discussion. Quick note, I skimmed through all the responses quite quickly, so if I’m saying things that have already been said, disregard them.

I usually play on 2fort US 1 & 2. From my experience with toxic players, I believe two people can clearly show two types of “toxic” players.

The first is a player named “trash”, who I usually see on 2fort US 1. This player is notorious for talking like a cunt to people, saying fuck you every time you kill him, baiting/taunting you on text chat when he kills you, all of those kinda minor “toxic” things. If you frequent that server and you’ve played/talked with trash, you’ll know this is his “bit” and that he’s just screwing with you, trying to get a rise out of you and being a shit disturber.

Some may argue the way he conducts himself is toxic and unacceptable, yet I disagree, because he’s made it quite blatant all of it is meaningless banter. Players like trash are ok because they use so called “toxicity” to joke around with their friends and other players.

The second player, by the name of “Krash!!”, couldn’t be more different. To start, this player comes off as friendly and don’t always display their toxicity to everyone. Anyone who talks to Krash (that he doesn’t hate) will find him pleasant, those who’ve known him for a while will usually engage in lengthy conversations, once again, being pleasant. While this seems all fine and dandy, things quickly change when someone “competent” joins the opposite team and proceeds to kill Krash a couple of times throughout their session.

The response from Krash is almost, if not always the same. He’ll get suspicious, start to call the player out, focusing them, and continue doing both of these until either he leaves, or the player leaves. One of my friends gets constantly harassed by Krash every time she plays on the server, being called a slew of names and insults, along with cheater obviously. Outside of skial, his actions towards these people have varied. He’s been seen trying to call people out for cheating on their profiles and steam statuses, constantly messaging admins to ban whoever he thinks is cheating, talking shit about them after they leave or when they aren’t on, etc.

I could go on for days, and possibly write a 6 page essay with a thesis statement about Krash and how players like him should have no place in the community. The point I’m trying to get across is that I strongly believe if a player is being constantly toxic, towards multiple people, and don’t seem too keen on stopping anytime soon, why should they be allowed to spew their garbage and ruin other peoples fun?

It’s simple, people like trash, who have no meaning behind their toxicity, should be left alone. People like Krash, should be warned, then muted for toxicity, for they add literally zero value to the community.

Anyways, there’s my “wee” say in this. Being a former admin and server manager preciously for another TF2 community, I thanked the heavens everyday when I was permitted to mute someone for “excessive toxicity”, and to my knowledge, so did others playing on the server.