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Bottiger

Administrator
For those of you who have been here for a long time, you know that the Skial stance on moderating players leaned towards the side of player freedom.

We believed it was not our place to moderate chat among players (like Valve) except for clearly defined and unarguable cases of things like racism or advertising. There is a votemute available to the server.

However, after many years, one of the most frequent and reoccurring criticisms by people talking trash about us on reddit and youtube is that our servers are more "toxic" than casual. So we've decided to look into adding some kind of anti-toxicity rule.

Before we throw something up there, I'd like to see your thoughts and opinions on this, especially how the anti-toxicity rule should be phrased.
 

gala

TF2 Admin
Contributor
I think punishing people for basic trash talk examples being "ez, you're bad, fuck you," etc. is an overkill unless it's really excessive and repetitive.

But there are people talking in a really disgusting manner such as constantly telling people to kill themselves, harassment levels of toxicity, threats.

Obviously I'm not going to make a list of where goes the line between your average trash talk and actual bothersome toxicity, but I think most players are able to use enough common sense on whether to say something or not. If they do lack the common sense and basic manners it could be up to admin to decide if it crosses the line of excessive toxicity or not based on what they are saying, in what context and if people are bothered by it.
 

Mr Invincible

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
hi Bottiger i have made a suggestion about adding new rules in early 2021 they included a rule that i thought was good even if the other 3 weren't going to make the cut. the rule i thought of was no bullying since bullying is the same as being toxic in most ways. so please search for it and let me know if you like that idea and if you like the second idea in the suggestion i made. i hope this helps man. the suggestion goes by "add new rules" i hope that helps you there. have a good day and hopefully you will add atleast the first one that pertains to this thread you made :)
 

Mr Invincible

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
well that can make people mad but i have experienced bullying in school where i was teased for my full name and how i looked. i have experienced this and more on your servers when i played fully and got mad and i know that it isn't good to get mad. some people have called me names others made fun of me being nice to people on the server and people who joined it. i would welcome people to your servers and they liked being welcomed. most did i think but i have had times where people said i shouldn't tell them that they are breaking server rules. i have treid to tell them nicely and some have attacked me on it. the last time i was on your server a guy by the name of sun glasses at night told me i can't restrict others playstyles even if they break server rules. now i know that reporting them is something i need to do but the way he said these hurtful things made me feel like i was not a good person when i am. iknow this won't help out much but i'm sure people on your servers are dealing with many of these things like i did. but you are the owner and it's up to you to decide what the term will mean. i have given you what i could about what could go under such a rule and i hope it makes sense. if not then i'm sorry if i can't be more clear
 

Seminal Inhalation

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Reddit complains about literally everything. (No exaggeration, unfortunately. If you can think of it, there is likely a reddit complaining about it). You are never going to appease them no matter how much you try, don't even bother. It's like trying to appease twitter, it's just not possible and you will just end up pissing off more groups of people.

As for Youtube, every community gets clowned on as well. It comes with being popular and you cannot avoid that. Uncletopia, Wonderland.tf, Firepowered, Blackwonder, Panda servers VaticanCity and even random not-so-popular community servers all get shit on. It's more of a rite of passage if anything. Don't even take them seriously.

From my experience both 1st and 2nd hand, the more restrictive a community's rules are the more the community wants to break said rules and the fewer people said community appeals to. League of Legends tried this "anti-toxicity" tactic and their community became more toxic as a result and lost a decent bunch of players as it was the "breaking point" for many of them. In the long-term, it will hurt Skial's player base and make the TF2 community think of Skial as a "Babying server made as a safe space for sensitive people with thin skin" that will draw out even more trolls coming to hurt its reputation via throw-away accounts. Think of that one guy who makes a status update every time he comes back to hack on another IP, only on a larger scale and it's people coming just to be toxic on top of hacking. (and don't even get me started on the people that speedrun community server bans)

I see people complain more about being killed in skial servers more than anything else you have mentioned, does that mean we're going to have weapons disabled on skial servers? Or give everybody buddha or godmode? No, because that's stupid. People also complain about your mapper Jermaphobe "being a dick" or "abusing his admin powers" a lot. Is he going to lose his position because of that or get banned? Obviously not. A lot of these people just complain for the sake of complaining.

It's a competitive rated-M video game. There will be people who are going to be angry, mad, upset, frustrated. Telling them: "Hey please don't be toxic." will just end up bringing out even more toxicity in people and bring more toxic people to skial servers.

Also, those people who say skial is more toxic than casual are dumb. There are people in casual that doxx you or even ddos you just for ruining their killstreak. There are also discord servers dedicated to sending bots to casual servers either to: Aimbot or pass false votekicks. I find either of those far worse than anything Skial has ever done.

Not to mention: There is an in-game mute function that blocks all chat logs and voice chat from individuals you mute and I have no idea why so few players know about it. I've seen people with thousands of TF2 hours not know it existed. Could try mentioning this feature in chat instead of the useless /ignore function which only blocks voice chat until either they or you leave the server in which case the /ignore is undone which people dislike.


But what do I know, I'm just some dumb asshole idiothead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


TL;DR: It will just end up making Skial more toxic than ever and the Skial player base will gradually decline.
 

Helius21

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
On a personal note, I much prefer toxicity be free and open, to extents further than what we allow now, having gotten a 'thicker skin' from frequent 4chan usage, unmoderated internet at a young age, and overall finding joy in practicing that behavior for the keks of it. After all, what is more entertaining and free than having people spout what they never would face to face under the protection of a virtual wall in between us? To pretend this behavior does no harm is stupid, to act as if it isn't is to simply lie and be unable to accept the simple facts. People like me can be told to kill ourselves and laugh it off, but BillyBob2077 might get a good idea to do so and cause the wildest shit storm we've seen yet to spawn.

It is no secret that Skial has a toxic reputation, as the creation of this post by you of all people would work against that theory. No matter which way a person aligns themselves with Skial, understanding that toxicity is a strong theme here is universal. At most, someone might stop to explain away what level we have here, but when seeing that through the eyes of new, young players, that is still not great even if there are 'cool people'. Unlike other, smaller communities, Skial is a very well known name within the TF2 community. It is the biggest even no? When we get shit talked, it impacts more people because Skial is at the center of the attention, no other community gets talked as much as this one does. If we keep reinforcing this image we are all a bunch of insufferable dickheads, new players will feel more inclined to go to 'nicer' communities. We gain one guy that can tolerate it, another server gets five because all of those five came to Skial and got ridiculed too for existing or asking an innocent question. Why should we cater to behavior that prevents the community from gaining members? If being decent brings in more people, why do we not do that?

The rule should not be super strict however, as this would lead to a lot of unnecessary reports and ban appeals that will impress those of us who thought we have seen all the dumbest excuses the world has to offer. It would also just enable people who seem to only enjoy Skial for the sake of getting people in trouble for tiny things. It should only become strict in the sense that people simply cannot take it overboard, and that players themselves should have the right to stop interaction between themselves and others alike to a degree. We should enforce even, that players should use their power to tell a user to stop harming them in whatever manner first, that way they only make a report as necessary due to the offending player violating the most basic of respect.

An example of how this rule could be implemented could run something like this:

Harmful, or otherwise excessively toxic behavior may result in punishment per admin discretion.

Harmful or toxic behaviors may include:
-Persistent harassment/bullying (examples: persistent shit talking of a specific player over a long period of time, deliberately following them across servers to see them, 'flaming' people to force interaction)
-Threatening players well being (examples: threatening to dox, or otherwise harm the player in real life)
-Specifically using communications to be toxic (examples: only ever turning voice on to bad mouth people, only using text specifically to spew offensive material and nothing more like racism or retarded nazi propaganda)
-'Ganging up' on players (bandwagon activity like above, all players should be held accountable for their participation)

Not harmful behaviors:
-Getting mad and shit talking an enemy player
-Insulting a players skill
-Being in the same server with people you don't like
-'Targeting' a player in game, PVP wise
-Talking about sensitive/serious topics
-Hurting hackers feelings when they really have changed this time after so many years and deserve a second chance :(

It is up to the player to initiate a resolution with people they feel are harming them. If the person ignores any such request, they are choosing to persist in toxic behavior and breaking the rules (PVP is non-applicable)

I could add lots more or less, but I think I'd fair better after posting this and hearing any questions or thinking over hypotheticals. In general though, I think that curbing the current reputation would be best if possible. But rather than having some iron fist over it, we should try to give the players themselves a choice with a basic guideline as to what exceeds 'normal' levels of toxicity and what doesn't. (I apologize of my articulation or english is screwy here, I have had to retype this a few times while thinking it over.)

Edit: Uninvolved players should NOT be reporting for others in these cases unless it reaches that 'exceeding' level. Let the players involved settle it themselves.
 
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Bottiger

Administrator
Reddit complains about literally everything. (No exaggeration, unfortunately. If you can think of it, there is likely a reddit complaining about it).

That is true, but the problem here is that we get way more of this than any other community. And the number of negative comments/videos seems to outnumber the positive ones. And there are competing communities that do have toxicity rules that use this excuse to tell people not to play here.

Take a look videos like this where we're getting blamed for the way other people act on the servers, and all the comments saying things like "this is why I avoid skial".


There's also no proof that LoL lost a bunch of players over toxicity rules.

The fact is, people aren't satsified with mutes or votemutes anymore.
 

Seminal Inhalation

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
There's also no proof that LoL lost a bunch of players over toxicity rules.

The fact is, people aren't satsified with mutes or votemutes anymore.
It wasn't specifically the no-toxicity rule that made people leave, it just happened to be the thing that tipped people over the edge they were already hanging over and so they went over due to the no-toxicity ruling. Go in a match, call someone trash for intentionally playing bad and boom you're banned. A big fuck you to all the time you put into the game because you call someone out for griefing. LoL was already in a bad state at the time and then the devs went and did that. Here's a video on it with a lot of people agreeing with their points and also having left. Some even stating the situation is worse. Hell the video even spawned other videos of people quitting league of legends as well.



That is true, but the problem here is that we get way more of this than any other community. And the number of negative comments/videos seems to outnumber the positive ones. And there are competing communities that do have toxicity rules that use this excuse to tell people not to play here.

Take a look videos like this where we're getting blamed for the way other people act on the servers, and all the comments saying things like "this is why I avoid skial".

Skial gets it the most because they are the most popular server. If wonderland.tf was the most popular, they would be getting the most negative view instead of skial. People are like that to be cunts and people will intentionally go to communities to start shit. They don't care about the rules, they just wanna piss people off. Further stricting the rules will just ensure they keep returning and make a bigger fuss and potentially make a meme about it like with the Yandere Dev simulator where people make videos and uploads of them getting banned from their discord server which encourages even more people to do the same.

That guy in the video broke the discrimination rule from the looks of it and nobody reported him which is another big issue I've seen with Skial players overall. The average Skial player does not know/understand how to report people breaking the rules. They either get upset at the player and leave, or say Skial does nothing because they aren't immediately banned. They seem to think that you or another admin is always watching the chatlogs and voice chat of every skial server 24/7 and that every time someone breaks the rules you guys immediately catch them and punish them, but in reality they see reports on them with evidence and then action is taken. Of the ones I do see know about reports, they flat out say "I'm too lazy to make a report" or much more often, "Ugh I have to login/make an account? No thanks." So people either don't know about reporting, or don't want to bother to log in to make a report. These people quite honestly want admins to handhold them 24/7 so they don't get even the least bit disturbed.

Again, Skial has more people like this because Skial is the most popular TF2 community so people are naturally more drawn to Skial. Than anywhere else. In their minds it's either they play casual which has a bot problem, or go to a community server which has a very low chance of bots/hackers appearing and bring their personalities from casual to community servers with them, mainly being Skial servers due to popularity. All of this on top of the game being actively neglected by Valve.
 

Seminal Inhalation

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
Would it not be easier to move reports to Discord? I can already think of the reasons why not, but it would make it easier for new players to report people.
It's possible I suppose. I've heard a decent amount of people go to the discord to try and report people only to be told they don't take reports on the discord and they need to make one on the forums, which leads back to the problem of them unwilling to do so for trivial reasons.
 

MrLupin

Spectacularly Lethal Soldier
Contributor
For those of you who have been here for a long time, you know that the Skial stance on moderating players leaned towards the side of player freedom.

We believed it was not our place to moderate chat among players (like Valve) except for clearly defined and unarguable cases of things like racism or advertising. There is a votemute available to the server.

However, after many years, one of the most frequent and reoccurring criticisms by people talking trash about us on reddit and youtube is that our servers are more "toxic" than casual. So we've decided to look into adding some kind of anti-toxicity rule.

Before we throw something up there, I'd like to see your thoughts and opinions on this, especially how the anti-toxicity rule should be phrased.
Honestly, this would be a very bad idea in my opinion. I understand that toxicity isn't a good thing and I agree with that. But this rule can kill the popularity of the server faster than normal if implemented incorrectly.

Like if you made it where it was no toxicity at all is allowed, then Skial will die out fast.

To be honest, I would want to propose an alternative/compromise but because of how tricky this subject be but I think we should just use the ingame mute button if one doesn't like a toxic player. Otherwise, they either have to mute them or just grow a thick skin.
 

Arusu1

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
So would the “toxicity” only count for people who say something racist, or discriminates someone or just keep saying offensive stuff or whatever? Because if so I’m completely fine with that honestly because, it’s just downright wrong and those types of people shouldn’t exist. Like Gala said, it would probably be going overboard if someone were to get banned for saying simple trash talk like “ez” or “losers” or something like that. They are assholes, yes but I don’t think they should be banned for saying that unless they’re saying offensive stuff then, yes I do agree they should get banned or muted. However, toxicity does and will forever to continue to exist in not only in this game, but practically any other game too. It’s a common thing that we all have to live and go through sadly, but the best thing we can usually do is just ignore the person who’s being toxic, because being toxic back to them doesn’t make you any better than they are. They want and seek attention from you so it’s best to not play by their game. Just play the game that you’re playing and stick to it. If you’re having fun with the game and are being happy and having a good time, good for you, I really do hope that you continue to have a good time. Don’t let the toxicity of someone ruin your day, because they’re just a poopy pants stinky binky. Welp, this is my opinion about this rule so if you agree with me, thank you, and if you disagree with me then I understand.
 
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Bottiger

Administrator
It wasn't specifically the no-toxicity rule that made people leave, it just happened to be the thing that tipped people over the edge they were already hanging over and so they went over due to the no-toxicity ruling. Go in a match, call someone trash for intentionally playing bad and boom you're banned. A big fuck you to all the time you put into the game because you call someone out for griefing. LoL was already in a bad state at the time and then the devs went and did that. Here's a video on it with a lot of people agreeing with their points and also having left. Some even stating the situation is worse. Hell the video even spawned other videos of people quitting league of legends as well.


This guy honestly sounds very toxic and as far as I can tell League of Legends is still a thriving and bustling game 7 years later.

Just because a youtuber got his fame and followers off of being toxic in a game and is mad that he can't do it anymore doesn't mean Riot should have let him continue to do that.

There's also a huge difference between LoL and us. While that video has 13 million views, that is TINY in comparison with all the other positive videos on it https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=league+of+legends&sp=CAM%3D

We don't have a bunch of videos that are positive about us, let alone ones that have more views than the negative ones.

We also don't have to ban people, we can simply mute them as you can't really grief people like you can in LoL.
 
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