Approved Remove "s2u" From New Trade Rules

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

The recent trade rule suggestion that was passed had mostly valid changes in it, except one glaring issue that was heavily opposed yet still passsd through. I'm suggesting and looking for support to remove this bullet from the trade rules:

• Begging, including trading series like "Scrap To Unusual" or asking for donations is considered Spam.

Scrap2Unusual has been a thing for years now, and does not do the servers any harm. It is a valid description of ones journey trading up from a piece of scrap metal to an unusual. I fail to see how that's spam. I myself have more time on Skials Trade servers than most others here, and making a valid trade exercise against the rules is nonsensical and will move our Trade servers in the entirely wrong direction. Very few people actually complete trades on our servers lately, and cutting out such a large part of the traders who actually DO complete trades is just beyond me.

People who occasionally ask for donations without spamming it should also not be considered spam. You are entitled to keep your items and not donate them to people, just as others are entitled to receive help from those who wish to help them build up their inventory, thus increasing trade activity on the servers. Scrap2Unusual is not just begging for free things, don't confuse the two. Advertising a valid trade method and including "also taking donations" after advertising that you are BUYING or SELLING items doesn't do anyone any harm and isn't begging or spamming.

 

[Bottiger]

Advertising that you're doing scrap2unusual before stating what you have for sale is no different than some
one simply stating "hey I'm trying to get a Scorching Flames Sole Mate, so I'm selling some lower tier stuff so I can eventually get it. Feel free to trade me to see what I'm selling"

Then why not do that without mentioning S2U? Seems like the whole point of S2U is to imply to people you should get trades biased in your favor. If you aren't really looking for freebies I don't see the necessity to tell everyone you are S2U.

But if people are going to leave the trade server because S2U then people would do the same if they saw like 6 players marked f2p on a server with let say 18 people; not full enough to kick f2p but not too empty. I rather have S2U than f2p in that case because not all S2U are expecting to get a good deal in 100% of the trade they make. Why are f2p only being kicked but people who are actually trying to trade even if you disagree with the method being punished more severely by getting gagged for 24 hours or more?

Because there is no good way to detect S2U players while there is actual code to detect if someone is f2p or not with 100% accuracy.

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

It's almost insulting that even with the initial backlash at the suggestion, it was still somehow made a rule.

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

@Bottiger because it's a trade server. Everyone on a trade server has goals. There's no reason to ban or gag someone for having a goal. The point of trading is to make profit by getting trades the best way you can. Stating that you have a goal is just as valid a technique as selling things for discount prices or targeting certain people.

 

[Silver Ag]

Because there is no good way to detect S2U players while there is actual code to detect if someone is f2p or not with 100% accuracy.

but at least one of them is actually doing what the server is meant for; trading. F2P might as well be considered the friendlies on regular servers.

 

[Bottiger]

but at least one of them is actually doing what the server is meant for; trading. F2P might as well be considered the friendlies on regular servers.

I agree that it is better than F2P but, that doesn't change the fact that it is easier to deal with on a technical level.

@Bottiger because it's a trade server. Everyone on a trade server has goals. There's no reason to ban or gag someone for having a goal. The point of trading is to make profit by getting trades the best way you can. Stating that you have a goal is just as valid a technique as selling things for discount prices or targeting certain people.

Yeah but you haven't explained what's the point of mentioning this other than to get unfair trades. Doesn't everyone go from scrap to unusual?

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

Yeah but you haven't explained what's the point of mentioning this other than to get unfair trades. Doesn't everyone go from scrap to unusual?

Yes. Exactly. So why ban or gag people for stating that they're doing exactly what everyone else is doing?

 

[Bottiger]

Yes. Exactly. So why ban or gag people for stating that they're doing exactly what everyone else is doing?

So why bother mentioning it except to psychologically manipulate people into giving you more stuff in trades?

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

So why bother mentioning it except to psychologically manipulate people into giving you more stuff in trades?

Because the point of trading is to get people to trade you.

 

[Silver Ag]

I agree that it is better than F2P but, that doesn't change the fact that it is easier to deal with on a technical level.

that's true but it doesn't change the fact that people are more willing to leave the server over f2p than S2U when the server is not full. S2U are traders even if some of their goals may try to get traders to be sympathy. Not all traders are going to give them a better deal just because they're doing S2U. I think people having to do S2U tend to be lower end traders, which may give some traders some idea what they might have if they do the classic line of "Trading everything in my inventory." It also may help the fact that if someone may have a shitty unusual and see someone has S2U in their name or in chat, they might be able to sell it to them for a higher price if the buyer is desperate enough for one. Bottom line is, i think a punishment over a phrase seem to be extreme. The fact is that not everyone does S2U and expect free stuff and not everyone is going to give them free stuff or a better deal if they're doing S2U. If you're so adamant about it being spam, just make it like how mic spam is being treated in trade and let people decide via vote menu.

 

[Sargent¥]

+1.

If we're going to bring hours into account, well over 3000 of my hours have gone into trading. I can assure you that this rule doesn't at all mean begging and actually looks absolutely ridiculous if we enforce it. If people start begging then we can just punish them for begging, we don't need to punish them for just having it in their name or advertising it. That's just them having fun, why should we away take their fun? I can assure you that if an actual youtuber got banned for this, Skial would be the punchline of every trade server joke in existence.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

that's true but it doesn't change the fact that people are more willing to leave the server over f2p than S2U when the server is not full. S2U are traders even if some of their goals may try to get traders to be sympathy. Not all traders are going to give them a better deal just because they're doing S2U. I think people having to do S2U tend to be lower end traders, which may give some traders some idea what they might have if they do the classic line of "Trading everything in my inventory." It also may help the fact that if someone may have a shitty unusual and see someone has S2U in their name or in chat, they might be able to sell it to them for a higher price if the buyer is desperate enough for one. Bottom line is, i think a punishment over a phrase seem to be extreme. The fact is that not everyone does S2U and expect free stuff and not everyone is going to give them free stuff or a better deal if they're doing S2U. If you're so adamant about it being spam, just make it like how mic spam is being treated in trade and let people decide via vote menu.

• Any and all trading can be accomplished by advertising the items. The inclusion of S2U is only for begging purposes.
• Because it is considered spam, it is voteable by the server and reportable, assuming there are no Admins there. I, for one, would always warn a player seen doing it and give them a chance to stop before applying any punishment; the key to all of this is discretion. It is each player's responsibility to read the Rules but this is not a measure imposed to increase any amount of punishments applied to our players; it is to "level the playing field" and keep trading fair and enjoyable for everyone, not just those who think begging is okay. Having an uncompetitively-legislated server whose population is dependent on how many people can stand the beggars or think "real" traders even join is not a solid strategy in terms of keeping Skial relevant and long lasting. If one hasn't seen players leave a server [and sometimes never come back] in favor of another that doesn't allow this childlike nonsense, then one does not look. I am not okay with public opinion of Skial being a place full of beggars and a last resort for those who actually wish to trade.

 

[KinCryos]

S2U is just a fancy name for lowballing

 

[BBQ Prophet]

S2U is just a fancy name for lowballing

Don't forget "attention-hogging, self-centered, guilt-tripping, underhanded, shameless, importunate meme garbage that spreads like a disease"

 

[Silver Ag]

• 
  Any and all trading can be accomplished by advertising the items. The inclusion of S2U is only for begging purposes.
  Because it is considered spam, it is voteable by the server and reportable, assuming there are no Admins there. I, for one, would always warn a player seen doing it and give them a chance to stop before applying any punishment; the key to all of this is discretion. It is each player's responsibility to read the Rules but this is not a measure imposed to increase any amount of punishments applied to our players; it is to "level the playing field" and keep trading fair and enjoyable for everyone, not just those who think begging is okay. Having an uncompetitively-legislated server whose population is dependent on how many people can stand the beggars or think "real" traders even join is not a solid strategy in terms of keeping Skial relevant and long lasting. If one hasn't seen players leave a server [and sometimes never come back] in favor of another that doesn't allow this childlike nonsense, then one does not look. I am not okay with public opinion of Skial being a place full of beggars and a last resort for those who actually wish to trade.

The only example i see of S2U being used as begging was the video bottiger posted and the reason wasn't even because he was doing S2U but instead he influence the players under the guise of making a video and history allowing players thinking they're helping make history. You're so keen on removing a selection of players who trade in a way you don't approve of, which is childish in it own way. You want skial to be known as a place where if one trade admin doesn't like how people trade then they can punish you for it?

 

[BBQ Prophet]

The only example i see of S2U being used as begging was the video bottiger posted and the reason wasn't even because he was doing S2U but instead he influence the players under the guise of making a video and history allowing players thinking they're helping make history. You're so keen on removing a selection of players who trade in a way you don't approve of, which is childish in it own way. You want skial to be known as a place where if one trade admin doesn't like how people trade then they can punish you for it?

I suggest actually reading what you just quoted

 

[Silver Ag]

I suggest actually reading what you just quoted

i did read it all, but some of those i agree with and some i don't. I just chose to respond to only some of them of what i disagree with because i have a headache from a jrpg i been playing. You could keep thinking the rule is fine and everyone else who disagree with it is wrong or you can improvise on it because the forum majority disagree with it and thinks S2U means something else compared to yours.

 

[Blade D_Hero]

I don't understand your and Bottiger's reasoning of "ok but why do they have to have it in their name; it just influences others to give them a better deal."

Ok? That's literally the point of trading; trying to get a one-up on everyone else and make more profit. If they have a silly tag in their name and it works for them, literally who the fuck cares. We're punishing people for being good capitalists with this rule, and that's just not right.

 

[Maddo]

Anyone can see the exploitability in a scheme like this, people duped into believing there is some sort of meaning behind the theatricals. On the other hand, how far can anyone go exploiting the system before their behaviours are scrutinised, I mean noone is going to trade with them twice..

 

[Bottiger]

Ok? That's literally the point of trading; trying to get a one-up on everyone else and make more profit. If they have a silly tag in their name and it works for them, literally who the fuck cares. We're punishing people for being good capitalists with this rule, and that's just not right.

Well if we use that definition, then scamming and begging would also fit but they are obviously not beneficial to the server.

The main point of trading is that you have something I want more than what you want from me, and this feeling is mutual. After we trade we both win. For example maybe I hate sunbeams and I like burning flames, and you hate burning flames and love sunbeams.

Traders trying to rip each other off by 1-2 refines per trade is not really all there is to trading.

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

Begging is asking for free things directly. Scamming is deceitful thievery. Simply stating that you are doing a popular trading series, then selling normal items for normal prices isn't remotely related to either of those