Approved Change "Advertising Hacks..." PSA

[BBQ Prophet]

In game, it reads "Advertising hacks is considered spam which is not allowed"

According to the updated punishments list by KillerZebra, advertising hacks carries the same punishment as hacking; it even shares the same bulletin.

Hacking / advertising hacks

Therefore, I think it should read

• "Advertising hacks is a permanent offense"
• "Advertising hacks is considered hacking"
• "Advertising hacks is not allowed"
• "Advertising hacks is a permanent ban"

or something similar that presents it as a

major offense

rather than a

minor offense

 

[Maddo]

I think it's pretty clear that advertising hacks isn't just spamming.

I don't see what else it can be but spam, no matter what scenario I apply in my head it always come down to the person spamming. Can you elaborate on examples where it could be classed as more?

 

[BBQ Prophet]

• I could reference all the permanent bans for advertising hacks.
• I could quote the rules.
• I could quote the updated punishment list.
• I could make a solid case that advertising hacks increases the number of people who use hacks which is in itself bad enough to treat it as hacking.
• I could make a solid case that advertising hacks is against the rules is because "GET GOOD GET LMAOBoX", etc. is automatically spammed from a hack that isn't necessarily detectable otherwise.
• I could make a solid case that allowing people to advertise hacks is more harmful to Skial's reputation as a safe and fair community than any amount of spamming could ever be.
• I could make a solid case that nobody gets punished for spamming by saying something just a few times.

I'm not saying it isn't spam. I'm saying it's far worse than spam. It even made its way onto the Major Offenses on the same bulletin as hacking. Whatever stance those in charge take, I will enforce and currently, the Rules say that it's a Major Offense, which spamming is not.

 

[Maddo]

That's not elaborating on examples, that's just a list of why you think it's so bad, and to be honest most of what you wrote is saying "it's bad because the rules say so".
I think that each example of advertising hacks is different, some just troll with a bind that imitates the LMAOBoX text, while others may be actively encouraging others to try out a cheat. Therefore the spectrum is quite broad. If I had a bind that said "GET GOOD GET LMAOBox" and I used it once, would you consider that enough to permaban me?

 

[BBQ Prophet]

I'm not here to make things up, I'm here to respond to situations.
I don't understand your problem with being proactive. Hell, this isn't even the point of this thread; it's that the PSA misinforms players.
Regardless, just like nobody is allowed to use the "n-word", nobody should be allowed to advertise hacks because it's negative rather than positive. Nobody can be expected to know who's making a joke and who's advertising. It's putting the name out and it's the opposite of the entire point of having it be against the rules to allow it at all. We might as well just allow hacking if it's okay to advertise hacks. If I said I was selling black people, I would be silenced for racism, not spam. If I advertised hacks, especially if I used the name of the program, I should be AT MINIMUM permanently silenced with the opportunity for an appeal. A slap on the wrist is not the appropriate response to a Major Offense.
I understand that you think advertising hacks is just spam; it's the only possible scenario in your mind and that's fine. I understand about using judgement and taking the situation into account, but a weak response isn't even using the rules as they are written for players to read. How about: A person is advertising hacks. It's not anybody's responsibility to know their intentions but it's obvious that anybody who can read just heard about a hack, possibly even for the first time, which could easily lead to some of those players or their friends using said hack or other hacks. By preventing the hack from being advertised, we can actually reduce its being used not only on our servers but others as well. I understand that LMAOBoX is a meme, but guess where a ton of people heard about it? TF2. If I told thousands of people that you could make an explosive out of gasoline and frozen orange juice concentrate, I guarantee that a bunch of people would try it. If I had never said that, no matter if I was joking or not, most of those people probably would not have heard about it and the few who tried it probably would not have. You can live in a world where everything is an innocent coincidence and you can read everybody's mind; I do not. And I'm not a ban-hungry asshole looking for an excuse to punish people; I actually removed a permanent ban from a player who advertised hacks because the ban got the point across. The punishment for advertising hacks is crystal clear and anybody can appeal; what is the problem?

 

[Maddo]

I don't understand your problem with being proactive

Skial has always churned over things, to make the right decision this is no difference.

Nobody can be expected to know who's making a joke and who's advertising

Yes they should, these people are called admin.

If I said I was selling black people, I would be silenced for racism, not spam.

Ahhh so its about people selling hacks?

but it's obvious that anybody who can read just heard about a hack, possibly even for the first time, which could easily lead to some of those players or their friends using said hack or other hacks

It's also obvious that if I told you to put your head in an oven you would.(oh sorry did I just assume the worse from you?)

I actually removed a permanent ban from a player who advertised hacks because the ban got the point across.

You really need to stop this hypocrisy, as others who have been banned for cheating claim they got the point across, so why are they not unbanned? perhaps because cheating is a more serious offence?

what is the problem?

The problem in my eyes is that demonising something that is a bit of fun like a baiting bind doesn't really achieve anything.
Without wishing to sound too blunt (as you seem to be ruffled at the collar already) you cant expect a perma ban on someone who is fucking around to be anything less than abuse.
There are a few threads in the admin section which show the history and thought processes behind the wording in the server announcement.
and still you haven't answered my question

If I had a bind that said "GET GOOD GET LMAOBox" and I used it once, would you consider that enough to permaban me?

The punishment for advertising hacks is crystal clear and anybody can appeal; what is the problem?

We don't ban on the premise that people can appeal, and I certainly hope that is not your philosophy, innocent until proven guilty.

 

[T-Wayne]

I agree that advertising hacks is an offense that happens in chat. So since it can be considered spam it should probably be a maximum punishment of permanent silence if at all. A ban is not necessary unless a person is cheating.

However I still agree making the server message reflect whatever punishment awaits the players for advertising hacks.

 

[Sakiko]

Someone spamming joke box crap get a silence, those that cheat get perm banned by the scripts bottiger has, as any admin should.

 

[Maddo]

I agree that advertising hacks is an offense that happens in chat. So since it can be considered spam it should probably be a maximum punishment of permanent silence if at all. A ban is not necessary unless a person is cheating.

However I still agree making the server message reflect whatever punishment awaits the players for advertising hacks.

I think the need to distinguish between advertising hacks (as in promoting them) and some kids annoying bind is what's needed. . I am pretty sure the server announcement was to curb the spam, as the amount of people that actually promote hacks is minimal.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

@Maddo You're being awfully technical when it suits you and only when it suits you.

I think the need to distinguish between advertising hacks (as in promoting them) and some kids annoying bind is what's needed. . I am pretty sure the server announcement was to curb the spam, as the amount of people that actually promote hacks is minimal.

Using the name of a hack is promoting it whether that's the individual's intention or not. "GET GOOD GET LMAOBoX" is advertising hacks; "HACKING IS FUN", "YOU GUYS SHOULD GET SOME HACKS" or something like that is not advertising hacks though it's still promoting hacking. Whether or not you or I think it's meant as a joke or promotion, the damage is done. Advertising in general isn't about getting every single person to buy; it's about exposing everybody possible to it to get to the percentage who will. At this point it's viral advertising, where people who don't even use the program advertise it. It's like when people yell "Taste the rainbow!" but they aren't thinking about Skittles; they're still advertising Skittles and everybody who hears them knows it's a Skittles slogan. And your example about a bind being used once holds no water. For example, (since you like hypothetical situations so much), a new TF2 hack is released today. Nobody knows what it is; it's not a meme or a recognized name, etc. We'll call it [INSERTPROGRAMHERE]. So people start going on servers and saying "GO MLG, GO [INSERTPROGRAMHERE]". They don't necessarily give a website, price or any other specific details but a quick Google search easily takes users to the site. It's obvious that this is a hack advertisement and it won't be a meme until a bunch of people have heard about it. You want to let people advertise it so that it gets to the point of people using it, wasting our resources and disrupting our servers so that we have to ban people for hacking who might not have been hackers otherwise? It's cool for people to think that it's okay because we let them advertise it? You wanna talk about

innocent until proven guilty

when you're totally okay with entrapment? Even if you go and ask people "were you advertising hacks or was it a joke?", they're just gonna tell you it was a joke to save their own ass. I'm talking about nipping the problem in the bud and you want to let hackers and their programs gain popularity and notoriety on our servers for free?

 

[Yuki Nagato]

Why not just say "Advertising hacks is a permanent ban, even if you meant it as a joke". That pretty much covers the warning as regards anyone doing it to troll.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

Why not just say "Advertising hacks is a permanent ban, even if you meant it as a joke". That pretty much covers the warning as regards anyone doing it to troll.

Just "+1" lol

 

[Maddo]

@Maddo You're being awfully technical when it suits you and only when it suits you.
Using the name of a hack is promoting it whether that's the individual's intention or not. "GET GOOD GET LMAOBoX" is advertising hacks; "HACKING IS FUN", "YOU GUYS SHOULD GET SOME HACKS" or something like that is not advertising hacks though it's still promoting hacking. Whether or not you or I think it's meant as a joke or promotion, the damage is done. Advertising in general isn't about getting every single person to buy; it's about exposing everybody possible to it to get to the percentage who will. At this point it's viral advertising, where people who don't even use the program advertise it. It's like when people yell "Taste the rainbow!" but they aren't thinking about Skittles; they're still advertising Skittles and everybody who hears them knows it's a Skittles slogan. And your example about a bind being used once holds no water. For example, (since you like hypothetical situations so much), a new TF2 hack is released today. Nobody knows what it is; it's not a meme or a recognized name, etc. We'll call it [INSERTPROGRAMHERE]. So people start going on servers and saying "GO MLG, GO [INSERTPROGRAMHERE]". They don't necessarily give a website, price or any other specific details but a quick Google search easily takes users to the site. It's obvious that this is a hack advertisement and it won't be a meme until a bunch of people have heard about it. You want to let people advertise it so that it gets to the point of people using it, wasting our resources and disrupting our servers so that we have to ban people for hacking who might not have been hackers otherwise? It's cool for people to think that it's okay because we let them advertise it? You wanna talk about when you're totally okay with entrapment? Even if you go and ask people "were you advertising hacks or was it a joke?", they're just gonna tell you it was a joke to save their own ass. I'm talking about nipping the problem in the bud and you want to let hackers and their programs gain popularity and notoriety on our servers for free?

1. I don't see where I'm being technical at all, let alone to suit myself, you put up a suggestion and we are exploring it's validity through debate.
2. You still haven't answered my question, after asking twice you evade answering, which means you don't like where the answer takes you. (that's to suit you)
3. learn to bloody paragraph, it makes reading a wall of text easier.
4.If you buy a bag of skittles, you do it through choice, and anyone that googles and downloads a cheat makes a choice.
5. If I started going on the servers and saying "get good, shove a peanut up a donkeys nose". would people do it... no, cause they know what cheats are are aren't, again it's choice.

So what if I had a bind saying "get good, get cheats, like me"?

seriously, sometimes you need to use your discretion at making decisions, not rely on a rule so you dont have to think.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

As already stated, this thread isn't even about the rules, it's about changing the PSA to match the rules. I've got no problem using discretion; I do it every day.
I can't help it if you won't read and consider my points; your entire bit is about how intention is reality and my bit is about how that isn't logical. We aren't going to agree because we're different types of people and that's all good. I've made my points and your dancing around the issue with your silly examples does nothing for the subject whatsoever.

 

[Tayto]

All I agree with is clarifying that advertising hacks whether joking or not is a more severe offense.

 

[Maddo]

As already stated, this thread isn't even about the rules, it's about changing the PSA to match the rules. I've got no problem using discretion; I do it every day.
I can't help it if you won't read and consider my points; your entire bit is about how intention is reality and my bit is about how that isn't logical. We aren't going to agree because we're different types of people and that's all good. I've made my points and your dancing around the issue with your silly examples does nothing for the subject whatsoever.

You still haven't answered my question.. and the reason you do not is that it undermines a lot of the points you have previously made.

at the end of the day:
advertising hacks can be spamming and it can also be more, it can be encouraging others to cheat, it can even get to the point of being classified as griefing.
tbh I don't see the need for any announcements to be made, saying its spam or otherwise.
spam is spam and cheating is cheating, two separate issues which need to be treated as such.
I don't think we should be applying permabans on people that have binds like lmaobox, a silence is better for that type of trolling if it gets too much.
and don't forget it's always better to discourage behaviour than punish for it. (every ban is one less seed).


-1

 

[BBQ Prophet]

I don't see the need for any announcements to be made, saying its spam or otherwise.

I can agree with that, but I'm working with what is.

I haven't answered your question directly because I've already answered it with all the stuff I've already said. It's not my responsibility to play your game when you choose not to even attempt to consider my points.

 

[Maddo]

you put an announcement saying that advertising hacks is the same as cheats, you need to permaban people for one bind. that's why the -1
If you want black and white, you get black and white, me I prefer colour.

 

[BBQ Prophet]

Really seems like you just want to argue; third time you've put "-1".
Almost every time I answer you, it involves "As I've already said" or something similar. Try reading my posts as more than something to pick apart.

 

[Maddo]

Really seems like you just want to argue; third time you've put "-1".
Almost every time I answer you, it involves "As I've already said" or something similar. Try reading my posts as more than something to pick apart.

I have read them, I just don't agree with your viewpoint.-1

 

[BBQ Prophet]

Almost every time I answer you, it involves "As I've already said" or something similar.

your entire bit is about how intention is reality and my bit is about how that isn't logical. We aren't going to agree because we're different types of people and that's all good.