Declined [VSH] Pyro Meta Issue 2.0 (Revert Pyro Nerfs)

[Glazzy]

I'll be brief with this one. The gas passer has shaken up the class meta and has made many other flamethrowers viable. You want pure tanky damage? Phlog. Airblast utility and Range but at the cost of less ammo? Back Burner. No downsides? Stock. (Degreaser is still kind of eh for me) While this is nice and all, it's just a manmelter meta in disguise. Soon people will get tired of only running gas passer like how it was with the manmelter. I'm still baffled as to why some of pyros weapons were nerfed when he needed buffs. The old manmelter practically has the same dps as the gas passer just was useable at a longer range. Here are my buff proposals to diversify the class:

Scorch Shot:

• Revert the Scorch Shot flare gun jump nerf as the weapon had very little damage output and was mainly used for utility of knocking back hale and a weaker, but effective flare jump

Manmelter:

• Revert the Manmelter nerfs (Okay, really? First a 50% dmg reduction then the removal of crits on burning players? Just change it back to how it was it's just fine) If soldier can get 300 and 600 rockets with the direct hit on top of his markets, then I don't see an issue here. It was in fact solid with other flamethrowers, just really stood out with the phlog. It keeps you on the ground and takes skill to aim.

Stock Flamethrower:

• Revert the removal of mini crits on the base. It could really use this to have some use when compared with the backburner or dragon's fury

Dragon's Fury:

• Repressurization rate on Alt-Fire reduced down to 0%. Simply too hurtful of an airblast to use.

Taunt Mini Crits:

• Increase the duration of Pyro's taunt mini crits as he is a close range class and needs time to get into the fight after he taunt from a safe distance

 

[mub]

words

This all operates under the assumption that Pyro needs buffs. Can you explain to me why he needs buffs?

Pyros can still rack up as much damage as other classes with the right loadout, but not every weapon is focused on damage. He's by-and-large been a damage-support hybrid class in VSH by design with utilities such as airblast and scorch shot, as well as some nice mobility items, I don't see why every single class needs the same DPS potential when they have other things to offer the team. Regardless...

Scorch Shot:
There was basically no reason to run the detonator or old flaregun when Scorch Shot essentially did the same thing plus annoy the hell out of Hale.

Mannmelter:
Flare gun now operates the way old Mannmelter did. I agree there should be a flare gun that deals straight damage, but the Mannmelter was a touch too easy to use, hence its meta. Flare gun doesn't have the increased projectile speed and an ammo limit, making it a tad more difficult to use than MM.

Dragon's Fury:
I like this idea, not much of a buff and more of a QOL thing. I'll see what I can do and run some tests on this one.

Taunt Mini Crits:
It's supposed to be risky to do this.

 

[Glazzy]

Pyro needs some of these buffs so that the class can have more diversity. So far, there is no reason to use a flare gun over the gas passer. If you believe the manmelter was too easy to use, then at least make the flare gun deal the amount of damage the old manmelter did (90 base, 180 crit, and I believe 24, maybe 12 afterburn) and then make the manmelter have the current flare gun's stats. The scorch shot was an underrated weapon but it was under used because it's hard to aim and has less jump height than the flare gun and detonator. Also, Pyro's mini crits just last too short to even utilize them so the issue isn't the risk really.

 

[mub]

Pyro needs some of these buffs so that the class can have more diversity. So far, there is no reason to use a flare gun over the gas passer. If you believe the manmelter was too easy to use, then at least make the flare gun deal the amount of damage the old manmelter did (90 base, 180 crit, and I believe 24, maybe 12 afterburn) The scorch shot was an underrated weapon but it was under used because it's hard to aim and has less jump height than the flare gun and detonator. Also, Pyro's mini crits just last too short to even utilize them so the issue isn't the risk really.

The flare gun has a reason to use it over the Gas Passer, it reloads faster/differently and has a different projectile path.
The flaregun does do the same damage values the old mannmelter did (also, the values you gave weren’t what it did; old mannmelter (and now flaregun) do 30 base, 180 on burning.) if the values are still different than this, please let me know and I’ll investigate it as a bug.
I don’t know what you mean by underrated for Scorch Shot, as it was an overall powerful pick of an item because it had a little of everything and was incredibly powerful against all Hales for its combination of KB utility and mobility, not to mention it still did ok DPS in terms of filling the Phlog.

 

[Iris Ⓐ]

Scorch Shot:

• 
  Revert the Scorch Shot flare gun jump nerf as the weapon had very little damage output and was mainly used for utility of knocking back hale and a weaker, but effective flare jump

No.

 

[Glazzy]

The flare gun has a reason to use it over the Gas Passer, it reloads faster/differently and has a different projectile path.
The flaregun does do the same damage values the old mannmelter did (also, the values you gave weren’t what it did; old mannmelter (and now flaregun) do 30 base, 180 on burning.) if the values are still different than this, please let me know and I’ll investigate it as a bug.
I don’t know what you mean by underrated for Scorch Shot, as it was an overall powerful pick of an item because it had a little of everything and was incredibly powerful against all Hales for its combination of KB utility and mobility, not to mention it still did ok DPS in terms of filling the Phlog.

The Manmelter and Detonator were far superior than the Scorch Shot and were used a lot more. Now the Scorch Shot is just a joke. The flare gun is not doing 180 either, it's doing 120 so don't know if that's intended or not. Also I'm going to just not mention the gas passer anymore for fear of it being nerfed. It's just so powerful right now.

 

[Miles Kilo]

Taunt Mini Crits:

• 
  Increase the duration of Pyro's taunt mini crits as he is a close range class and needs time to get into the fight after he taunt from a safe distance

Yes

Scorch Shot:

• 
  Revert the Scorch Shot flare gun jump nerf as the weapon had very little damage output and was mainly used for utility of knocking back hale and a weaker, but effective flare jump

No

Stock Flamethrower:

• 
  Revert the removal of mini crits on the base. It could really use this to have some use when compared with the backburner or dragon's fury

Yes

Manmelter:

• 
  Revert the Manmelter nerfs (Okay, really? First a 50% dmg reduction then the removal of crits on burning players? Just change it back to how it was it's just fine) If soldier can get 300 and 600 rockets with the direct hit on top of his markets, then I don't see an issue here. It was in fact solid with other flamethrowers, just really stood out with the phlog. It keeps you on the ground and takes skill to aim.

No

 

[Stack Man]

This all operates under the assumption that Pyro needs buffs. Can you explain to me why he needs buffs?
Taunt Mini Crits:
It's supposed to be risky to do this.

Mini-crit taunt duration does need to be buffed. It's way too short for a class that needs to be so close to Hale, you barely get a chance to use it.

It's as long as scouts when it should be as long as soldier/engineer.

 

[Flandre]

+1

 

[Glazzy]

I'd also like to point out that the FAN, Direct Hit, and Loose Cannon all have knockback capability, even more annoying than scorch shot arguably, and can still allow the player to jump away from hale with them. It's not like it's game-breaking or anything, it just made the weapon have a unique niche in the class. Flare gun could be for main ranged damage, detonator for flare jumping, scorch for hybrid, and manmelter for easier shots but less damage. On the other hand while I'm bringing this up, the thermal thruster could use an even faster deploy or use time because it's slow af to get away from hale with it. Died too many times trying to make use of it to get jump away in time.

 

[mub]

words

The Direct Hit I would not place anywhere near on par with the Scorch, FaN and Loose Cannon.
The Force-a-Nature requires you to be very close to the Hale to make good use of its knockback, which is meant to be a risk-reward; you’ll be prone to dying if you get close with the FaN and whiff.
Loose Cannon is a stronger utility but requires good or perfect double donks to match DPS with the other GLs; it also has a range more limited than the Scorch Shot.

Thermal Thruster is supposed to have faster deploy and holster time, that’s a bug I’m still looking into, but I agree there.

 

[Glazzy]

I honestly want to cry right now. I just give up on trying to make pyro better. Everytime I ask for changes to better the class he seems to get butchered in some way. I created this thread and got the gas passer's cooldown nerfed. Heck, I probably even contributed to the manmelter nerf by playing as pyro so much. (Some of my ideas were used but my thread was denied) Gas passer is currently broken with the phlog, not giving him mmmph. Phlog overall is weaker now because of the detonator changes as well as the scorch shot changes and a weaker, harder to aim long range flare gun. Before, I suggested a buff to the detonator to give it fall damage resistance and it got nerfed to have less ammo and a wonkier jump. I'm just so done with this. I'm just going to move on now with the class and play as other classes.

 

[True Darkian]

I honestly want to cry right now. I just give up on trying to make pyro better. Everytime I ask for changes to better the class he seems to get butchered in some way. I created this thread and got the gas passer's cooldown nerfed. Heck, I probably even contributed to the manmelter nerf by playing as pyro so much. (Some of my ideas were used but my thread was denied) Gas passer is currently broken with the phlog, not giving him mmmph. Phlog overall is weaker now because of the detonator changes as well as the scorch shot changes and a weaker, harder to aim long range flare gun. Before, I suggested a buff to the detonator to give it fall damage resistance and it got nerfed to have less ammo and a wonkier jump. I'm just so done with this. I'm just going to move on now with the class and play as other classes.

What do you mean? The Gas Passer got buffed, the cooldown got decreased by like 200%, it is a viable weapon again.

 

[mub]

I honestly want to cry right now. I just give up on trying to make pyro better. Everytime I ask for changes to better the class he seems to get butchered in some way. I created this thread and got the gas passer's cooldown nerfed. Heck, I probably even contributed to the manmelter nerf by playing as pyro so much. (Some of my ideas were used but my thread was denied) Gas passer is currently broken with the phlog, not giving him mmmph. Phlog overall is weaker now because of the detonator changes as well as the scorch shot changes and a weaker, harder to aim long range flare gun. Before, I suggested a buff to the detonator to give it fall damage resistance and it got nerfed to have less ammo and a wonkier jump. I'm just so done with this. I'm just going to move on now with the class and play as other classes.

Gas Passer isn’t broken, GP not filling MMMPH is intentional to prevent PhlogPass meta, which used to be a very seriously overpowered combo.

I’m still investigating the flare guns. I haven’t been able to do any work on this recently since I’ve been out of town.

 

[Glazzy]

What do you mean? The Gas Passer got buffed, the cooldown got decreased by like 200%, it is a viable weapon again.

I know it's somewhat viable but it was nerfed right after it was buffed because I made note of how game changing it was. Now its just a shadow of its former self and the potential it had. This wouldn't be the first time I should've kept my mouth shut when it comes to pyro. I've tried to give some ideas and work things out with the class but all I can see in the future is either further nerfs are no changes at all. I'm through with trying to help him out. While other classes such as heavy and demo get these awesome changes like the KGB and crit GLs, pyro always seems to get the short end of the stick. I'm one of the most active pyro players on the server ever since the season started and I've definitely noticed the growth of potential at the beginning then it coming to a halt, fluctuating as changes were made to the flare guns and gas passer, and soon it came crashing down. I would honestly rather have a manmelter and phlog meta right now then the current state of pyro. He's just too mediocre for my taste.

 

[Glazzy]

Gas Passer isn’t broken, GP not filling MMMPH is intentional to prevent PhlogPass meta, which used to be a very seriously overpowered combo.

I’m still investigating the flare guns. I haven’t been able to do any work on this recently since I’ve been out of town.

Well congratulations... the phlog is in an even weaker state now with how difficult it is to get mmmph. I don't even see an issue with the gas passer filling the meter because you have to a. aim the gas AoE to where hale is going to be and b. either teammates shoot at hale, you go up and burn him, or he takes fall damage. Before that period you have no mobility or anything protecting you from hale or doing significant damage to him. It's a close range playstyle and compared to the other close range playstyles, I don't get the argument here

 

[mub]

Well congratulations... the phlog is in an even weaker state now with how difficult it is to get mmmph. I don't even see an issue with the gas passer filling the meter because you have to a. aim the gas AoE to where hale is going to be and b. either teammates shoot at hale, you go up and burn him, or he takes fall damage. Before that period you have no mobility or anything protecting you from hale or doing significant damage to him. It's a close range playstyle and compared to the other close range playstyles, I don't get the argument here

GP, when it was filling Phlog, was able to burst-fill the Phlog with the explosion damage. with SJV, you could fill your Phlog in a single throw.
Then, when you used Phlog crits, it would fill your GP right back up. Rinse and repeat.
Was the strongest damage dealer in the game by far due to being super tanky on top of incredibly high DPS. Good regulars could 15-20k with it consistently every round, we'd see 7-12+ of them at a time, and it was overall insufferable.

 

[Glazzy]

GP, when it was filling Phlog, was able to burst-fill the Phlog with the explosion damage. with SJV, you could fill your Phlog in a single throw.
Then, when you used Phlog crits, it would fill your GP right back up. Rinse and repeat.
Was the strongest damage dealer in the game by far due to being super tanky on top of incredibly high DPS. Good regulars could 15-20k with it consistently every round, we'd see 7-12+ of them at a time, and it was overall insufferable.

I was never there to experience that, but if it truly was overpowered then I guess it's okay. However, I'm not okay with how the gas passer was changed in "secret" especially considering it was my fault. I used the gas passer with the phlog the day it was fixed and buffed (and to my knowledge it was not filling mmmph, as it should) and it was a pretty solid close range combo, not broken at all. I'm a good regular so my damage stats shouldn't really play a part in the nerfs. Other regulars were using the gas passer effectively and getting respectable amounts of damage (6k-8k). If it looked overpowered, it was likely the medic assists that made it look powerful. I'm astounded that a night's worth of showcase by a regular or two required a change to the weapon.

 

[★Major Pootis Steeljaw☆]

This all operates under the assumption that Pyro needs buffs. Can you explain to me why he needs buffs?

Pyros can still rack up as much damage as other classes with the right loadout, but not every weapon is focused on damage. He's by-and-large been a damage-support hybrid class in VSH by design with utilities such as airblast and scorch shot, as well as some nice mobility items, I don't see why every single class needs the same DPS potential when they have other things to offer the team. Regardless...

Scorch Shot:
There was basically no reason to run the detonator or old flaregun when Scorch Shot essentially did the same thing plus annoy the hell out of Hale.

Mannmelter:
Flare gun now operates the way old Mannmelter did. I agree there should be a flare gun that deals straight damage, but the Mannmelter was a touch too easy to use, hence its meta. Flare gun doesn't have the increased projectile speed and an ammo limit, making it a tad more difficult to use than MM.

Dragon's Fury:
I like this idea, not much of a buff and more of a QOL thing. I'll see what I can do and run some tests on this one.

Taunt Mini Crits:
It's supposed to be risky to do this.

To answer your question. I feel as though here are my thoughts on it.

Scorch Shot - I agree with the buffs proposed to it. However keep it as a ' stay away ' tool. Like an air-blast that doesn't feed hale rage.

Manmelter - I feel as though the nerfs were too severe on it, however, still fails to fill it's purpose even with the last man having all crits. A buff would be nice.

Dragon's Fury - I do like this change, however, it could shake the meta of pyro flamethrowers to rely only on this, or phlog. I say just keep an eye on it to see what happens.

Taunt Mini Crits - Yeah. It needs to last longer, it's supposed to be risky, but I shouldn't be forced to taunt every 3 seconds just to get some minicrits.

 

[herp 105.4]

To answer your question. I feel as though here are my thoughts on it.

Scorch Shot - I agree with the buffs proposed to it. However keep it as a ' stay away ' tool. Like an air-blast that doesn't feed hale rage.

Manmelter - I feel as though the nerfs were too severe on it, however, still fails to fill it's purpose even with the last man having all crits. A buff would be nice.

Dragon's Fury - I do like this change, however, it could shake the meta of pyro flamethrowers to rely only on this, or phlog. I say just keep an eye on it to see what happens.

Taunt Mini Crits - Yeah. It needs to last longer, it's supposed to be risky, but I shouldn't be forced to taunt every 3 seconds just to get some minicrits.

have you ever played vsh?