Declined Revert VSH super jump 2x damage and bring health pool back to pre-update

[Slip]

Hale should not be penalized with damage vulnerability for exercising the only viable mobility ability he has. Single arrows shouldn't do 930, pills shouldn't do 600 and sticky traps shouldn't do 5k dmg in one shot.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I do not understand the rationale behind this change.

PS: Recently when I was playing hale, the boss UI was hidden and I wasn't able to super jump. Coming on and off. Please look into this. Maybe it's conflicting with the /haledmg on overlay? But I wouldn't be sure.

 

[mub]

The rationale behind the change is to prevent Hale as I understand it from becoming too easy to play with the jump-spam/hit-and-run type of playstyle.

Nonetheless, I would welcome trying an alternative rework like increasing the jump cooldown and/or adding a small boost in movement speed to the Hale's passive nojump timer to give him mobility when not jumping. Maybe a slight damage vulnerability like 1.25x would still be nice for rewarding RED's airshots.

Some players are getting really good at waiting for jumps to deal loads of damage, especially Demo and Sniper players, who already are great DPS classes. In addition, this change is technically weakening newer players, who tend to crouch jump or not strafe a lot during jumps, making them extremely easy to track and hit. Really good Hales are largely unaffected by this change as well, as they've gotten really good at complicated strafes to avoid fire.

 

[mub]

The rationale behind the change is to prevent Hale as I understand it from becoming too easy to play with the jump-spam/hit-and-run type of playstyle.

Nonetheless, I would welcome trying an alternative rework like increasing the jump cooldown and/or adding a small boost in movement speed to the Hale's passive nojump timer to give him mobility when not jumping. Maybe a slight damage vulnerability like 1.25x would still be nice for rewarding RED's airshots.

Some players are getting really good at waiting for jumps to deal loads of damage, especially Demo and Sniper players, who already are great DPS classes. In addition, this change is technically weakening newer players, who tend to crouch jump or not strafe a lot during jumps, making them extremely easy to track and hit. Really good Hales are largely unaffected by this change as well, as they've gotten really good at complicated strafes to avoid fire.

Wanted to edit my response but forum wouldn't let me, shortening the window of damage vulnerability could help too. Hale can land and still have a few seconds of damage vulnerability, letting any class capitalize easily on a grounded target instead of needing to airshot for the double damage.

 

[herp 105.4]

this better not effect ff2 because all vsh changes effected the ff2 server and that's cringe

 

[Xerʘ]

-1, I see no issue with it anymore since the knockback revert.

The only thing this affects is when people 50% HP which is a gimmick anyway except on some maps or bad players on the server. The health pool is high enough to accommodate the x2 dmg in air.

I would welcome trying an alternative rework like increasing the jump cooldown

I think this is a mistake. IMO would ruin the game mode for probably a lot of people if this were to go through, It's long enough.

 

[Xerʘ]

-1, I see no issue with it anymore since the knockback revert.

The only thing this affects is when people 50% HP which is a gimmick anyway except on some maps or bad players on the server. The health pool is high enough to accommodate the x2 dmg in air.

I would welcome trying an alternative rework like increasing the jump cooldown
I think this is a mistake. IMO would ruin the game mode for probably a lot of people if this were to go through, It's long enough.

to add because it wouldn't let me edit again, changing it so the x2 ends as he lands would be ok as well.

 

[mub]

to add because it wouldn't let me edit again, changing it so the x2 ends as he lands would be ok as well.

+1 for this specifically

 

[White Moose]

+1 VSH was already suffering from low skilled hales, and this jump nerf makes it brain-dead easy to win as red.
You might say that a hit and run strat is unfair but what makes it so detestable ?
I see those who utilize the hale mechanics to the full potential to be the best hales the server has. I go so far as to say that vsh might even suffer from a lack of decent hales, player wise of course.
Nerfing the hale jump lowered the skill ceiling for hale, and it doesnt really make hale any more fun . All it does it make the hale a moving punching bag, akin to target practice.
Again referring to the lowered skill ceiling is that nerfing the jump hasnt made any players get better at hale, as it was one of the tools that really make them a boss entity, besides rage. The jump nerf detached a boss trait from the hale and simply made hale a tanky high hp player.
I understand that the community might not want vsh 50-50 win to loose ratio, and would rather red win mostly, but that to me at least ruins the vsh as an idea. So allowing players to play hale as jumpy or rage prone as they want (not limited to any other hales) is what makes the server exciting and player rich.

 

[Xerʘ]

New
+1 VSH was already suffering from low skilled hales, and this jump nerf makes it brain-dead easy to win as red.
You might say that a hit and run strat is unfair but what makes it so detestable ?
I see those who utilize the hale mechanics to the full potential to be the best hales the server has. I go so far as to say that vsh might even suffer from a lack of decent hales, player wise of course.
Nerfing the hale jump lowered the skill ceiling for hale, and it doesnt really make hale any more fun . All it does it make the hale a moving punching bag, akin to target practice.
Again referring to the lowered skill ceiling is that nerfing the jump hasnt made any players get better at hale, as it was one of the tools that really make them a boss entity, besides rage. The jump nerf detached a boss trait from the hale and simply made hale a tanky high hp player.
I understand that the community might not want vsh 50-50 win to loose ratio, and would rather red win mostly, but that to me at least ruins the vsh as an idea. So allowing players to play hale as jumpy or rage prone as they want (not limited to any other hales) is what makes the server exciting and player rich.

I don't know if I'm reading what you're saying incorrectly, but are you saying that hale is harder or easier to win as than before?

 

[White Moose]

I don't know if I'm reading what you're saying incorrectly, but are you saying that hale is harder or easier to win as than before?

What im trying to point out is that hale has become easier to win which i think is an issue. The hales pre jumpo nerf were skilled and provided challenging entertainment to the players.
The jump nerfed instead of making players better hales by lowing the skill ceiling only made the overall gamemode easy. People are not getting better at hale due to the jump nerf.
I think allowing the players to fully implement the mechanics to their advantage is what all hales should do, and this jump nerf isnt helping anyone really. Well i guess only red benefits from hale being a sitting duck.

 

[Xerʘ]

What im trying to point out is that hale has become easier to win which i think is an issue. The hales pre jumpo nerf were skilled and provided challenging entertainment to the players.
The jump nerfed instead of making players better hales by lowing the skill ceiling only made the overall gamemode easy. People are not getting better at hale due to the jump nerf.
I think allowing the players to fully implement the mechanics to their advantage is what all hales should do, and this jump nerf isnt helping anyone really. Well i guess only red benefits from hale being a sitting duck.

Hale before any changes were made was very difficult for anyone that wasn't VERY good at the mode, the changes were made to make the winrate 50/50 or as close to it as they could. I don't understand if you mean the double damage after jumps or the delay until you are able to jump again when you refer to jump nerf, regardless they added more health to all the bosses and then also changed Bunny and Vag a lot. The reasoning for the double damage was so they weren't just completely buffing better players, if the game is "too easy" use the !diff command and/or just play as stock hale.

The problem with Skial VSH is that there are not many players that are above average, so making the game easier for the players that are not was the way they went.

 

[Bottiger]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I do not understand the rationale behind this change.

The game mode is broken and needed to be fixed.

People tell me that hale is too weak and sure enough, I check and the win rate is 20%. So I buff the bosses. Then I get people complaining that hale doesn't need to be buffed and that they win all the time. So I look at when they play and sure enough they win almost all the time with almost all their health left.

I look at their gameplay and the thing that stands out is that they spam super jump all the time and barely take any damage. For anyone else though, they get massacred when they try to play boss.

This problem was getting worse by the day. A year ago, only 10% of people had noboss on. A month ago? I saw half the server with noboss on. Yes that's 15 out of 30 people. If I continued to let this get worse, no one would be playing boss.

Spamming super jump does not take very much skill and it prevents a MASSIVE amount of damage because he can't be backstabbed, flamed, or meleed by demoknights.

You are not prevented from jumping. Jumping has merely been nerfed so it doesn't become something that you NEED to spam all the time to win. Prior to my balance changes you could only win if you spammed super jump to goomba people. That's why HHH was the worst boss, he could not spam jump. It led to very monotonous gameplay.

I understand that the community might not want vsh 50-50 win to loose ratio, and would rather red win mostly, but that to me at least ruins the vsh as an idea.

I think you got the teams mixed up. Red is humans. And wanting bosses to win more than 20% of the time does not "ruins the vsh as an idea" because bosses won more than 50% of the time in the first few years vsh came out and that's why everyone wanted to play boss. Now no one wants to play boss because of years of power creep added to humans by public maintainers of VSH.

You also don't play tf2 much anymore so I don't know why you're trying to give us your opinion on this.