Sam Alt-Man

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
I searched the forum but don't see discussion on the recent change. Changing the PL server to allow up to 40 players (plus VIP if any) is a mistake. The rounds already feel different. Areas of the map that were already prone to being unbalanced toward RED or BLU now feel unplayable at times. 32 was already a stretch beyond how the game was designed, but usually works. This takes it way beyond what these maps can handle. I'd vote we change it back.
 
The complainers are coming out because their favorite settings died out. Nobody that is satisfied with 64 slots will bother to be here to complain or voice their satisfaction.
Yes, the more than 30 unique 'complainers" in that thread and the 30 unique "complainers" in this thread, but 30 isn't that much :) - the servers can hold way more than that now. The majority that actually play on these servers have voiced their objection to this change, the new players who join once and never play on these servers again will obviously not say anything. I get so annoyed when I join this server and remember that actually playing tf2 is just something you do in the background while you listen to some idiot in vc or something else. I want you to try playing on these servers at peak times, if you still even play tf2, but you do you.
 
The complainers are coming out because their favorite settings died out. Nobody that is satisfied with 64 slots will bother to be here to complain or voice their satisfaction.

that’s a pretty dismissive take, just because people who dislike the change are the ones speaking up doesn’t mean everyone else is happy it just means they haven’t said anything. silence isn’t the same as approval besides, a lot of players don’t use the forums or don’t feel like their feedback would make a difference

some of us aren’t complaining just because our “favorite settings died out.” We're bringing up valid issues like map balance, server stability, and game design limits (like 64 players in 2fort is just too much). Ignoring that and chalking it up to nostalgia isn’t really fair.

honestly, you can kinda tell you don't spend much time on your own servers playing if you think that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: D_Ink and bowwow
“favorite settings died out.”...not even sure what this means. The complaints are that the server doesn't play as well, poor hitreg, low frames, playstyles reduced to spamming, classes such as scout barely viable, stalemates on the same chokes over and over. I've not seen anyone mention 'favourite settings', only that you have reduced the quality of gameplay.
Your customer service is terrible and your disdain for those that actually want to support your servers is evident in every reply you give.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nobody.
There is nothing wrong with the hit reg. The server still runs at 66 fps with practically 0 change in the variance. Server performance does not decline even at 64 slots. We have specially optimized code exclusive for our servers and running almost current generation cpus (13th gen intel, ryzen 7000 series).

If you noticed a difference with the hit reg it is likely a problem with your computer or internet connection. An increase of 8 players should not be killing your pc.

I understand your frustration, if my favorite settings turned out to be less popular and there weren't enough players to fill both types of servers, then unfortunately 1 has to go away. 32 slots has been losing players. If people wanted 32 slots so much then then they should have filled it when it was up.
 
I understand your frustration, if my favorite settings turned out to be less popular and there weren't enough players to fill both types of servers, then unfortunately 1 has to go away. 32 slots has been losing players. If people wanted 32 slots so much then then they should have filled it when it was up.
Restore PAYLOAD #1 to 32 slots and create a new one with 40 slots. You will then see which will be filled and which will be empty.
You created a new server with no advertising, no any chat notifications that new one exists - how would it be filled if no one knew about it except a handful of regular players.

I don't think that's the point of us as players having to care about filling the server, which was the case when the second server with 32 slots was created for a while.
 
Last edited:
At this point, why don’t you just close the thread already? It’s clear you’re refusing to listen to your customers’ complaints, and those with priority (US) have had their 32 slot server for two months now. All you're doing is ragebaiting the affected players on one of the many servers you manage, and you don’t even play to have any real context about how well or poorly things are going.

Pretty funny, this.
If you noticed a difference with the hit reg it is likely a problem with your computer or internet connection. An increase of 8 players should not be killing your pc.
Hit registration has actually been garbage ever since the 32 slots were added, but hey, you wouldn’t know that because you don’t play on your own servers.

Lastly, it's pretty funny, after rereading the whole thread, that the only person in favor of the 40 slots is someone who plays exclusively 2Fort and Dustbowl, and whom I've only seen maybe three times on Payload, and that was before the 40 slots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nobody. and bowwow
If you noticed a difference with the hit reg it is likely a problem with your computer or internet connection. An increase of 8 players should not be killing your pc.
Then it is indeed, very curious that my computer and internet connection have no issues on any other servers, nor do I have issues on the US payload server even with the higher ping 🤔Also peculiar how even new players joining question the 'lagginess', and players on the server mention spikes happening at the same time for all of us. Quite the mystery.
 
Why the heck is US Payload back at 40? This situation is so broken and poorly understood by all parties.

Of course you're going to see bigger numbers with bigger server slot. Of course the taper of the slope of die-off is going to be longer if there's more slots. Bigger number = bigger change. This is the stupidest argument and I'm tired of repeating it. I was very grateful to see the betting script back in, that has been a great community building tool to have again. You've also been gauging population on school-populated vs the incoming summer break. Now it's screwed to all heck as we go into summer break, a clearly higher pop time for team fortress 2 player count given historical steam data.

You have not provided any valid "science", stats, or otherwise as to why you believe 40 is better. I do not see any sustained population for longer in anything you've posted that can be explained by the larger slots. Where are people clamoring for this? Where was the complaints when US went back down to 32 if it's so beloved? I have not seen it except for players who come for gimmicks. Gimmicks are the death of vanilla adjacent TF2 community servers.

You have implemented dark patterns and biased approaches that self-confirm what is, at best, a hunch, from what I have seen. You are assuming that people are playing by preference rather than habit. This is all a fool's errand and neglects people being creatures of habit. If you force people to judge their preference, then you will ultimately make people reconsider how they spend their time altogether. The resounding source of feedback, the people who care enough to actually crawl out of their holes and make comments, are telling you this is bad. The experience is bad. No one came running back when 40 players went away on US. And where they did, it was by no means a majority. Your assumptions are a fragile house of lies and all that is holding it together is the fact that you're lucky there's regulars that bring people in because they know a place to congregate and you happen to be that lucky recipient. I am done. There does not seem to be "science" or "reason" with you.

We started to play on your servers because you had our preference. We continued because we made friends. Friends can band together and go elsewhere, and I will become an active voice against joining if we have to. Friends, sadly, I think it is time that we have to, because the guy in charge doesn't care about the folks who actually care to come have a civil discussion or even appear on the server to give it a whirl and hear the live feedback that's ongoing.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing wrong with the hit reg. The server still runs at 66 fps with practically 0 change in the variance. Server performance does not decline even at 64 slots. We have specially optimized code exclusive for our servers and running almost current generation cpus (13th gen intel, ryzen 7000 series).

If you noticed a difference with the hit reg it is likely a problem with your computer or internet connection. An increase of 8 players should not be killing your pc.

I understand your frustration, if my favorite settings turned out to be less popular and there weren't enough players to fill both types of servers, then unfortunately 1 has to go away. 32 slots has been losing players. If people wanted 32 slots so much then then they should have filled it when it was up.
Also, you admitted it yourself in a prior post. If you had just made the original 32 players it would have been the full one. This is asinine.
 
I guess it's safe to say that this is the future for Skial now.
Sadly, it's a future without me. I've formally requested a refund of my remaining donator status. I will not be returning if there's no home for me, and will do this suggested advertising work of my preference for others to not return as well.
 
In my opinion, to solve this whole situation, on the server should be made a poll, for example, for a period of 2 weeks with a vote for the number of slots: 32 vs 40.
For 2 weeks I assume that every active player will enter the server at least once and will vote in the poll.

If the poll for that period of time appears to the player as soon as he enters the server (like the window with chat commands that appears every time when we join the server), then people will vote in this poll. In addition, it would be possible to make chat notifications and some command to open the possibility of voting and check the results of the poll in real time.

It would then be necessary to block the possibility of multiple votes, for example, so that only one vote can be given from one Steam ID. It would be possible to add a condition that only a person who has lost a minimum of 5 hours on the server can vote.

Then the administration will get a confirmation of what the server community expects - not only regular players, but also people who do not have an account on the forum and do not contribute.

I am sure that such a thing is possible to do.
 
Last edited:
Why again

Why you made this Change Bottiger and Why it Was a Carless One.

You made this change because you saw the growth when you were comparing the performance between the US and EU servers.

You're comparing apples and oranges like they are the same thing even though they are not. You have to consider a lot to dictate a server's performance. You also have to consider that people have jobs, and those jobs earn them money to survive, this has a greater priority over playing games. This is the reason why people don’t join in the morning, including people attending school to pursue an education.

It's also due to time zones because the EU is around 6 to 9 hours ahead of the US. We play when they're asleep, but they play when we are asleep, also including the massive player increase from holidays and vacations.

You also wanted Skial to stand out more by increasing the player count to 40 that's why there is a high number of players joining the 40-player server and is also another reason why others from the 32-player experience and it's because that is the only payload server you have at the moment.

Stats Stats Stats
Why is it that every time I come back to this forum, I only see one thing and that is Bottiger only seeing the stats/performance of a server. As of last time you said that payload only had 5% increase which is nothing compared to EU 40%, and you also said later that it was ok after you revert it back to 32 because there was not that much of an increase. And again, you change your mind like if it were betting on red or black if it was a game of roulette.

How you treat Skial
You treat Skial as this “community” but in reality, it's more like communities because each individual one is distinctively unique with all their own preferences and needs. Just because one person says they want to have chat spam Fridays doesn't mean everyone else wants it. Don’t let the minority of players speak for the majority of players.

Balancing
You have so much to consider, things like how a certain class will act and perform for example:
Performance Pros/Cons:

Scout:

Strong at close range.
Is easily overwhelmed by groups of players and Health.
Soldier:
High damage explosives and AOE of damage and Health.
If not at close to mid-range, rockets will deal low damage.
Pyro:
Somewhat strong at close range and the ability to reflect projectiles.
Weak against groups of players and a lacking ability to airblast spam and needing to be up close to do anything.
Demoman:
High damage explosives, having an arc to hit players at an angle, having a huge clip and can be overly oppressive with a medic constantly feeding them crits for non-damage falloff 3x damage.
Weak at close range.
Heavy:
Strong at close to mid-range and high health.
Slow and weak at long range and is easy to target.
Engineer:
Can build sentries to protect him and his team.
Spam can easily destroy his nest.
Medic:
Can heal and keep their team alive.
Harder to make pushes which are dependent on teams.
Sniper:
Very strong and long range and being able to completely shut down a part of the map.
Weak at close range, take more damage at long range to a larger amount of people shooting at him and harder visibility.
Spy:
Can insanely kill with a singer backstab and can go invisible.
It is the weakest class by far and team support and higher numbers make the spy almost completely useless.

This changes how classes interact and perform and is what a class would face but would be heavily increased depending on what it is. You may think buffing classes like the Spy would make him better like more sapper damage but would still have little effect on how he plays because he still has to worry about what I listed before but more overwhelmingly. And you also must consider how maps will play out. They will be more crowded considering that 32 players at times can be somewhat crowded. Choke points will be harder to push into and will be harder to defend. Games will be more determined by spam than skill and this is not considering things like class stacking and other things. As 32 was a stretch of what the game was designed for but now 40 is nowhere near it. This would make it into a horrible experience.

Possible Ideas to Satisfy the Old and New
There are multiple ideas you can do, One is to make another 40 player server and revert the old one, And if you see a high demand of players you can open another one to have even more players and you can please the people how like the old 32 and you can please the ones who want the new 40 player payload.

And if you don’t think you have enough reasons to go off, go back and read what the other players are saying about this change because those people bothered to say something because they care about this server and what a great time they had on it and they don’t want it to change for the worse.

What I Think of This Change
I think of these changes as Skial not listening to its players once again, not understanding how people interact with your servers, and you trying to change a player base that does not agree with those changes. But I must admit you have a high variety of experiences that can appeal to certain groups like death run or class war but is not the original game and does not appeal to players like me because we came for the 32-player payload experience not a gimmicky one. I will not be told that this new 40 experience is the “perfected/better” TF2 experience or go somewhere else because of the ones who listen to people like Uncle Dane or whoever they are because they don’t know the games history and all they believe is that TF2 is this “Silly Hat Game” where they think that the game is doing good even though it's not. I understand that when casual became bot free Skial has lost a lot of players and Bottiger has been changing his servers to accommodate for those losses, but you should not ruin the experience that many have liked for years because of a negative thing. one of the reasons Skial is still around because of the core player base because it offers an experience like no other. But changing it will make you lose some of that core player base. If a change does not happen, I will stop coming to Skial and I will tell anybody that are new or old looking to play TF2 or look for a new server not to go to Skial because of these clear issues. And I've been playing here for more than 2 years, I have made over 90% of my friends on Skial and had the best time on it, I don't want to leave but I feel forced to because of it. And I know a lot of people who play on your servers that will stop paying for premium and will leave.

And I am sorry if I'm not professional, but I felt like something had to be said about this problem once again.
 
I started this thread hoping to save the gameplay in my favorite server, but enough has been said. I'm not going to find the gameplay I'm looking for in Skial so I'll find another community. Maybe a new group comes along to keep it alive.
 
Meanwhile, I noticed another community that basically went from 0 players to filling every day when they switched to 40 slots.
Have you considered maybe some of the reasons why other community servers are able to keep higher player counts and skial seemingly can't?
  • Skial has a huge racism and sexism problem that goes completely unaddressed and does not create a fun community environment. The completely unhelpful take from the mods is "just mute them".
  • Every other night there are edgy contrarian right wingers who join voice chat and make everyone uncomfortable by spewing hatred, politics, and trolling for several hours.
  • If I had a dollar for every time I heard sexism directed at a woman (shut up whore, suck my dick, etc.) because they dared to use their microphone, I'd be rich enough to buy skial on my own at this point.
I am completely against the concept of "just mute them", because tons of people don't and it just drives them away and creates a negative community environment that people don't want to participate in, so they don't come back. This is the community you want and allow, so obviously people are looking elsewhere.

There's also a lack of variety and community feedback: There's this huge pain point brought up that custom maps kill the server, but how is it possible that other community servers are not affected by this? The biggest competitors to pl+ are all mostly vanilla + some custom maps and they don't suffer a hit in player count. People want to play on a server where variety exists, and where players can choose their own maps that they like.

One of the most popular competitors to skial pl+ is run by a woman where they instantly ban people like this, and now that server fills up earlier and empties later than skial.
 
Skial has a huge racism and sexism problem that goes completely unaddressed and does not create a fun community environment. The completely unhelpful take from the mods is "just mute them".
I am completely against the concept of "just mute them", because tons of people don't and it just drives them away and creates a negative community environment that people don't want to participate in, so they don't come back. This is the community you want and allow, so obviously people are looking elsewhere.
I handle any instances of discrimination when I'm on the server, unless you can provide concrete evidence of an admin reviewing someone behaving this way and saying "Just mute them", then this false narrative is wrong. Handling offenders is not a one way street, there are many servers and too few admins. So Skial has many ways you can report them and/or notify the admins - You could apply for admin yourself. If no one on the server will bother to report the offenders when an admin is not around, this helps no one and hurts every one.

Take a look on the first few pages of the reports sub-forum and count how many of them are for discrimination.
https://www.skial.com/forums/tf2-reports.38/
 
Have you considered maybe some of the reasons why other community servers are able to keep higher player counts and skial seemingly can't?
You can count on 1 hand the number of communities that have a comparable number of players. If there were alternatives, you would be there playing instead of complaining here.

Do you also realize that there's also people that argue we are too strict and cater too much to easily offended people?

One of the most popular competitors to skial pl+ is run by a woman where they instantly ban people like this, and now that server fills up earlier and empties later than skial.
Yeah that is basically the only competitor, and that server emptied out 3 hours earlier than ours last night after we changed to 40 slots.
 
Yeah that is basically the only competitor, and that server emptied out 3 hours earlier than ours last night after we changed to 40 slots.
One of the most popular competitors to skial pl+ is run by a woman where they instantly ban people like this, and now that server fills up earlier and empties later than skial.
can someone tell me what server it is so I can go play there, like dm me it or smn
 
I handle any instances of discrimination when I'm on the server, unless you can provide concrete evidence of an admin reviewing someone behaving this way and saying "Just mute them", then this false narrative is wrong. Handling offenders is not a one way street, there are many servers and too few admins. So Skial has many ways you can report them and/or notify the admins - You could apply for admin yourself. If no one on the server will bother to report the offenders when an admin is not around, this helps no one and hurts every one.

Take a look on the first few pages of the reports sub-forum and count how many of them are for discrimination.
https://www.skial.com/forums/tf2-reports.38/
how about this one you replied to and then ignored: https://www.skial.com/threads/poomba-transphobia.105388/
but maybe this doesn't count because y'all didn't literally say "just mute them" and only implied it by leaving it as the only option
I should note Poomba went on to taunt and harass another trans friend of mine the day after this in retaliation
I haven't played on Skial since then and have exclusively played on the server hug sports was referencing because they actually ban transphobia
 
how about this one you replied to and then ignored: https://www.skial.com/threads/poomba-transphobia.105388/
We tend to not mute for month old offenses unless they're extremely serious

I should note Poomba went on to taunt and harass another trans friend of mine the day after this in retaliation
This is something he most likely would have been muted for, if he was reported. But he wasn't so nobody knew it happened

Skial has a huge racism and sexism problem that goes completely unaddressed
Why does nobody report it? If someone gets reported constantly and doesn't have the brains to maybe stop saying what they're saying, they'd be looking at a 3 month mute pretty fast after some shorter mutes