FF2 and VSH are similar but not as predictable, in VSH every hale does the same amount of damage and since there are less bosses, it's easier to know what are their strength/weakness and also their rage, in FF2 there are way more bosses with different rage and damage, which can be hard to learn, however the concept is the same, I do agree with that.
The situation you are describing is nearly the exact same. Remember what I said before about spy and trolldiers damage in ff2 and how its percent based? That means the more players on the server the more damage and vice versa. When there are sub 10 people on the server, a market will do around 550 damage, and a stab will do about 400 damage. I have played in these exact situations many times, and it doesn't take much effort to still take a large amount of the hales health.
I used to play VSH really really often, in fact I was rank 1 in 2019
Rank doesn't equal skill, it literally just means you were the most active lol, I've had rank 1 on ff2 a multitude of times.
I'm strictly debating about the minimum damage a backstab can do, I should have mentioned it in the title but I genuinely forgot, anything from 600 to 1500 is balanced
Right, and a multitude of people have responded saying this is a stupid idea.
Why risking yourself trying to trickstab or just backstab hale when he can instantly kill you at that range when you can aim for 2 point blank headshots with the ambassador then pull out your invis watch and go flying off the map, this surely involves more skills that a trickstab (sarcasm).
That's exactly the point, a class doesn't need every single weapon to be viable 100% of the time. You do realize revolver spy does more damage than a typical backstab spy right? For context, I bring up
@soos, who uses the enforcer on ff2, and can get anywhere from 3K to 5K damage easily (No knife used). The knife doesn't need to do a solid amount of damage 24/7, and what it does with those under 15 players, is a solid chunk of the bosses health (500 is pretty good for something so simple). If the risk isn't worth it, don't do it.
About trolldier, if hes using the mantreads and sync a mg with a stomp he can do minimum 1524 damage, which is great but hale's melee hit extends to his head like the disciplinary action, which can lead to bad deaths and on servers with few people, hale won't be distracted unless he's clueless.
Yuck, crutchtreads, literally free gardens. Forgot VSH has goomba, we had that removed 2 years ago iirc. It's not hard to find a hale distracted, even good hales can't pay attention 100% of the time. Wait for an opertunity such as him targeting/tunneling someone, or the better strategy, wait for the hale to rage, if you are outside of his range area you can go for an easy garden because most of the time hale will be too focused on the people stunned on the ground to look up at you.
Spy has nothing, just a backstab then go for trickstabs and only the kunai can make spy tank a hit, kunai isn't a crutch, it's the weapon of choice of spies risking themselves for trickstabs rather that using the big earner, stab once then flew away, the dead ringer is worst that the invis watch in almost every way, with the invis you can get hit once by hale, fly with the knockback to a healthkit, then you're good, with the dead ringer you don't have no second hit, you need to wait the recharge time because at melee range you're dead, especially if hale's ping is high but it's not like playing with 500 ping is even unrecommended, and it's not like ping always favors the attacker, but that's another story.
Alright, lets talk about spys weapons. Why is the kunai a weapon of choice? If it's such a big risk it must be something not many people would use right? Well the answer is simple, the kunai has little to no risk, let me repeat that again, the kunai, has little, to no risk. Now you may ask why I say this, it takes some skill to trickstab or chainstab. Here's the issue. The first backstab with the kunai requires neither of those. The hale has no idea a spy is behind them, and the spy can get an easy stab. So now on top of damage, he has 200~ health, which is enough to survive a hit. Let's compare this to stock. It's the same situation, except you don't get the health, if anything the kunai is a straight upgrade.
The dead ringer, ah the dead ringer. The most popular item for spies in VSH and FF2. The get out of jail free card. Run up to the hale for the backstab, if he turns around, well simply pullout this nifty gadget, don't die, go invisible, and get a speed boost, and this will all recharge in 20 seconds or so. Now let's apply this to the invis watch. The hale turns around, you use the watch, you aren't fully invisible until the cloak timer is over (0.5 to 1 second depending if l'tranger is used), and if you manage to make it through that, it's a pray to god he doesn't bump into me/accidently hit me while running to your posistion. Invis watch spy also has to deal with laggy hales, generally it's worse for them simply because if you are hit it is over, the dead ringer gives you that free hit, speed, and invis, for the small cost of a recharge timer. Pretty much makes the class have no risk.
Spy and trolldier, besides demoknight are the only classes that can do reliable damage with their melee, against a fast boi that can one hit you, they're anything but low risks classes, every other classes can stay at range, alright spy can use the revolver and soldier can use the direct hit but direct hit has a smaller blast radius for rocket jump which makes it slightly less valable with the mg and spy revolver is so damn boring, like yeah, the invis watch/letranger spy that just shoots hale 3 times to have the cloak full again, staying 80% of the game invis is not a crutch but trickstabing with the kunai is ?
I am unsure if VSH included the update of pyroknight and boxing heavy, but I believe they did, both of those classes do much less than 500 damage per melee hit. If anything, that risk to damage ratio you are talking about is the worst for pyro. His damage is subpar, and using air blast gives the hale rage, as well if you miss a single airblast you are dead. Now, if we look at demoknight, his melee does 195 per swing. That means to be equal to the MINIMUM damage for ONE market garden or ONE backstab is 3 hits with his weapon. That means if demoknight wants to keep up to spy or soldiers melee damage, he needs a 3 to 1 ratio for hits.
The blast radius doesn't matter for rocket jumping. You need almost no radius to rocket jump, it's the same if you use stock, I don't see why you are treating it like a different item. The main reason people with the direct generally do less damage with the market is simply because the damage output of the direct is VERY good. 338 damage for one hit is ridiculous, and you can get that damage guaranteed using taunting for minicrits.
As explained above, kunai doesn't require skill for the first stab, chainstabbing with garenteed 1 hit survival for each stab is easy. If you would also look back at what I said before, I did call the l'tranger a crutch. In this specific situation it wouldn't be a crutch, simply because if you play that way you do little do no damage. Three shots of the l'tranger does 200~ damage, that's almost nothing, then cloaking and repeating takes a long time, eventually damage will add up before the hale catches you or caps, your damage should only be around 1500-2000~. Not much damage.
It might be hard to read it it but you can't do anything but cherry picking on my explainations, see if there's a slight mistake, that's sad, you shouldn't be doing this, hopefully, all of you will gain wisdom, intelligence and heart.
Alright well I explained literally everything you put up above, so there's no excuse of cherry picking from you anywhere. It's odd how you think I'm only pointing out mistakes you make, but you have made a good few dozen and I have said nothing, I take the meat of your argument and go through that. For example, your last sentence, "gain wisdom, intelligence and heart." makes no sense, as well you forgot a coma between intelligence and heart. It's sad you think I am, it feels like you either don't understand what I'm saying due to a language barrier, or rather you aren't reading these in the first place, either is plausible.
Whatever if you think that 750 is too high for a minimum then 600 should be perfect, I'm just shocked that 2 pipes do more damage that a backstab, 600 isn't even a big difference.
750 is definitely high, even 600 is slightly high, I think the current state of 500 is more than fine. However, what isn't fine is the damage calculation you are using. How are two pipes 600 damage? A pipe does 100, unless it is crit, in which case it does 300, does demo get permanent crits in VSH? And if thaat is the answer, than the issue isn't spy is underpowered, it's simply demo is overpowered.
I did my job of staying impartial, fair and true
Well, you definitely weren't impartial. Due to a possible language barrier, impartial is treating everyone the same no matter what there is about them. Now, as you can clearly see, you've disregarded most of my opinion simply because I'm an admin, you've accepted ferals opinion because she plays VSH regularly, and you've called everyone else who disagrees with you a clown. Don't exactly see the impartiality nor being fair or true. Simply put, you act like everybody with the exception of yourself is a clown, incompetent, stupid, or inferior. You treat people with little to no respect with nothing more than them saying they disagree with you, and for whatever reason, you seem to have become quite hostile in most of your responses toward me. I genuinely don't understand why you act like everyone else is wrong, again as I've said before, every single person who has commented on this with the exception of you has been against the implementation of your suggestion. Is everyone a clown, or is it simply you are the clown.