Sam Alt-Man

Uncharitable Spy
Contributor
I searched the forum but don't see discussion on the recent change. Changing the PL server to allow up to 40 players (plus VIP if any) is a mistake. The rounds already feel different. Areas of the map that were already prone to being unbalanced toward RED or BLU now feel unplayable at times. 32 was already a stretch beyond how the game was designed, but usually works. This takes it way beyond what these maps can handle. I'd vote we change it back.
 
Buying people stuff instead of just giving them plain cash does not let you weasel out of this claim.

The offer went out when we were already at about 24/32 if I recall. Well past paying to seed. But yeah sure, I'm a weasel for gifting random folks (some were already OPS regulars, or randoms) to celebrate a momentous first night.

We're not relying on them solely to get people to join. We are running an event. The ads by themselves are next to useless.

OK. First event I've ever seen on Payload in all my years of playing. Weird that you listen finally for cries of community building, moderation, and curation when we actually started to take ownership over ourselves after being dismissed.

I tried responding politely at first, I even reverted the server back to 32 slots for a while.
Doing so without warning, and then reverting without warning, yeah. Your conversations have been polite, but neglectful. I hope I have brought politeness, as well.

But you people responding here are the ones that "provoke", "revoke", and selectively ignore what I say. It doesn't seem possible to have a productive conversation here as all the evidence is ignored and grumbling how I never listen to players. Did I not try to cooperate by reverting the server back to 32 slots for a while?
See above. No terms, no understanding, no messaging. Just silent judgement and lack of communication. And the last gestures have still neglected us and our requests to leave servers alone.

It's either your way or the highway, evidence be damned.

If you tried half as hard to keep the server alive or fill the new 32 slot server, there wouldn't have been any need for this drama.
Well, when you finally told us that it was up to us to do work for free... We just didn't choose to volunteer to work for you. I don't think that's drama. I've done nothing but wish better for the folks I care about. I've done the work, and now I'm working in a new angle. I've only known your highway, and I was trying to fix some pot holes. Now, I discovered a new highway.
Evidence we've asked for has not been spelled out for us. Graphs. Explanations. Documentation. Things the broader community can't correlate well other than also seeing global pop go down. So far, the evidence doesn't feel supported or present.
 
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Evidence we've asked for has not been spelled out for us. Graphs. Explanations. Documentation. Things the broader community can't correlate well other than also seeing global pop go down. So far, the evidence doesn't feel supported or present.
This is what I'm talking about. I have already shared graphs and numbers, and you keep saying there's no evidence. Our stats pages are even open to the public for everyone.

OK. First event I've ever seen on Payload in all my years of playing. Weird that you listen finally for cries of community building, moderation, and curation when we actually started to take ownership over ourselves after being dismissed.
This is just a temporary measure. Events stop working if you do them all the time. I am not interested in hosting events all the time. I already have too much on my plate.

People need to be incentivized to join the server on their own without an event.

Well, when you finally told us that it was up to us to do work for free... We just didn't choose to volunteer to work for you.

If you don't want to "work for free", then I will do the work to keep the server alive by changing it to 40 slots.
 
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The US server was empty very often when it was at 32 players as well. But it still filled during US times. Since you are european you wouldn't see it when it was active.

Why would you expect the EU server to be full at 12 am GMT when its 2-3 am in most of Europe?

That server is their replacement for the people here who want to see us fail and lose all our players to the point that they are even paying others to seed it.
So there is a cohort of players that have inexplicably stopped playing on skial servers starting at some point 2 months ago and since they are now playing somewhere else that equivocates to "wanting skial to die." We have been told over and over again that there are enough people playing on a 40 player server and that we are not needed. Or at least that is the vibe I got. You said that we can suck it up and play or get lost. I don't understand how we can simultaneously be told to leave if we don't like the change, but also told that we are hurting your precious server if we do. Honestly, I want skial to thrive, I don't like seeing the community servers lose players to casual. But you can't complain when people you told to get lost, have moved on somewhere else. Regarding the "paying" people to seed, a lot of players had already donated to OPS when Jeffel made that offer. I've spent a significant amount of money personally donating to skial, I don't see why donating to a server that is not skial is somehow wrong or somehow means that I want skial to fail. In another post you said something about people in the thread who only get on an hour and leave. I have put in 1200 hours on skial in two years (far more than one hour a night). Since March, probably less than 50. My inactivity and presumably others is due solely to your actions and your attitude towards the community.

Again, in your own words, there are more than enough players that want to play Skial US Payload X/40. You WILL NOT miss us. Stick to your guns and run the server as you see fit, and don't complain when people do exactly as you told them to.
 
Why would you expect the EU server to be full at 12 am GMT when its 2-3 am in most of Europe?

you said the server was filled yourself... 8 am pst is 3 am gmt (below)
And your server filling at 8 pm PST sure looks healthy and thriving to me (not).
or it is just very bad sarcasm cause its impossible to understand which part youre denying
If you don't want to "work for free", then I will do the work to keep the server alive by changing it to 40 slots.
I still want to know how 8 extra players keeps the server alive when it empties out late in the evening, it dies for the day. It does not seem like a few extra players change that, most people do not like playing in an empty server or even a half full one. (that is why people hate seeding)

What it does seem to do is consolidate more players on one server to make it easier to profit off of, which is not bad but the server is hosted at 30 lerp. There is no excuse, casual servers are 15 lerp.
 
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"If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself."
in layman's terms Cope and seethe moddie boy

Also I've been muted by the troll admin and it won't let me post a ban appeal so could you sort your shit out already Jeus wept!!!
 
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"If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself."
in layman's terms Cope and seethe moddie boy

Also I've been muted by the troll admin and it won't let me post a ban appeal so could you sort your shit out already Jeus wept!!!
mg about to get banned for life
 
My 2 cents. As far as I understand the servers are "dying out" and this was a measure aimed at aiding the situation. The destination is a respectful one, certainly. I came back to tf2 after like 6-7 months of inactivity and it was quite mind-bending to see so many spells thrown into the pot all at once. Gameplay has changed drastically and well, left the community as we see it in this thread, not going to explain that.

Like I mentioned, I respect your effort to keep the servers running, but I believe you can choose to go about future changes in a different manner. Since it's a community server, you need to play this "game" exactly as if you're governing a community.

Lots of ideas - let them choose. Drop an automated message in the game chat: "We are currently voting for (these and these) server changes on the website - make your vote count!", or something along these lines. I hope you understand what this implies from a longevity and business perspective, and how these simple 'cooperation' moments impact customer loyalty and trust. Look I know I sound all businessy and weird but you need these subtle manipulations to run this show.

Consider taking baby steps in the giant directions - if you had an idea to jump to 40 and you still wanna do it, to minimize the impact, try going to 34-36 first, see how that plays out. Run these little tests and analyze the players.

You see, if you let people choose themselves (or make it look like they did cough cough), there would literally be no ground for this thread to balance on. Change the subtle business messages into one's where Skial serves the customer (not the other way around) and your business will last, trust me.

Again, just some food for thought and I wish you a prosperous future.
 
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You said that we can suck it up and play or get lost. I don't understand how we can simultaneously be told to leave if we don't like the change, but also told that we are hurting your precious server if we do.
Where exactly did I say this?

I don't have a problem if you play on another server. What I have a problem with is advertising on our server and applying peer pressure to our other players that don't care and brain washing saying I never listen to the players.

in another post you said something about people in the thread who only get on an hour and leave. I have put in 1200 hours on skial in two years
Yes this is coming from most people who said the server isn't declining. Doesn't mean I am talking about you or 1 out of 20 people.

you said the server was filled yourself... 8 am pst is 3 am gmt (below)
8 am pst is 3 PM GMT, not AM. I have no idea why you are talking about EU servers, that graph is from a US server.

I still want to know how 8 extra players keeps the server alive when it empties out late in the evening, it dies for the day. It does not seem like a few extra players change that, most people do not like playing in an empty server or even a half full one. (that is why people hate seeding)

What it does seem to do is consolidate more players on one server to make it easier to profit off of, which is not bad but the server is hosted at 30 lerp. There is no excuse, casual servers are 15 lerp.
Because it just does? We tested it empirically. The server empties out later in the day and has higher player counts all day. There is no arguing that it doesn't help. The numbers were lower when it was at 32 slots, the numbers went up when we changed it to 40 slots. Then it went back down when we changed it to 32 slots again.

And as explained, we force lerp because idiots install mastercomfig which sets their lerp to 0, and then they complain that our servers lag. The lerp settings we have now are default and its been argued that lower lerp is not superior.

Lots of ideas - let them choose. Drop an automated message in the game chat: "We are currently voting for (these and these) server changes on the website - make your vote count!"
The problem with this, as I explained before, is that only people who have something to complain about will bother participating.

You talk like I did not try to discuss this with the players. Look at how long this thread is. I switched a server back to 32 slots, offered statistics and reasoning. I could have just said nothing and not bothered to switch a server back.

There is 0 difference between 34 and 36 compared to 32 players. The server reaches those numbers all the time from reserved slot users.
 
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its like you yourself want to keep arguing

you keep misrepresenting most of the things i say, it feels like you cant read but i must say, masterful ragebait
 
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I don't really want to argue, I am just repeating myself over and over again now. You guys keep making the same false claims and acting like if you keep repeating it like I never addressed it, it becomes truth.

you keep misrepresenting most of the things i say, it feels like you cant read

Ok let's start from the beginning shall we? Here are the exact quotes.

4. halg of the eu server already by 12am GMT is americans so your point is moot
Why would you expect the EU server to be full at 12 am GMT when its 2-3 am in most of Europe?
you said the server was filled yourself... 8 am pst is 3 am gmt (below)
8 am pst is 3 PM GMT, not AM. I have no idea why you are talking about EU servers, that graph is from a US server.

First you make the claim that since half the eu server is already americans then that somehow doesn't count.

Then I say that its already expected that the server is dropping off at 12 am GMT.

You say the server "was filled yourself" yes, no argument there. But you are arguing that since the EU server is half american then it somehow doesn't count.

Then you made the false statement that 8 am pst is 3 am gmt. At this point I don't even know why you bring it up, maybe you are referring to the graph. Because that is the only time I said 8.
 
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8 am pst is 3 PM GMT, not AM. I have no idea why you are talking about EU servers, that graph is from a US server.
You keep mentioning these graphs and how empty the servers appeared to be, yet this wasn't even an issue. Anyone who played daily on the server had literally zero problems with playing with a full amount of players, coping with just as many queues back then as there are now.
we force lerp because idiots install mastercomfig which sets their lerp to 0, and then they complain that our servers lag. The lerp settings we have now are default and its been argued that lower lerp is not superior.
Oh okay so it's the player's fault for finding ways to deal with tf2's troublesome optimisation, using a widely renowned and accessible custom config that was never an issue prior to the server changes.
The problem with this, as I explained before, is that only people who have something to complain about will bother participating.
Very convenient excuse to deflect any and all valid criticism coming your way. "People who complain only complain for sake of complaining, so i shall disregard it all." Should every individual loudmouth be taken at face value? Absolutely not, but when there is a cumulative and undeniable resentment for how things are, then maybe there is actually something going wrong??
You talk like I did not try to discuss this with the players. Look at how long this thread is.
Literally just a long line of excuses and denial.
I switched a server back to 32 slots, offered statistics and reasoning. I could have just said nothing and not bothered to switch a server back.
It's wrong to even pretend that you gave it a fair chance. Due to your complete lack of support it could barely get off the ground.
You hosted clearly labelled BOTS which is discouraging to any player joining during low pop times, while preferring to use the 'fake players' system that have arbitrary ping values on EU Payload 1. Which are at least semi-convincing to the average tf2 player.

It's also simple player psychology that when two servers are empty, they will naturally join whichever appears first in their list or has at least one other real person in it. Because at that point, you're not comparing 32 vs 40, you're comparing 1 player count vs 3. Only at peak times when the actual imporant defining factor comes into play: gameplay. With an almost unanimous agreement that a full 32 experience is far better and more tempting to spend money on that a spam lagfest 40 one.

You also didn't advertise it at all, and it wasn't only until sheer luck that skial regulars noticed it.

You did however, mute a player who advertised your own EU Payload 2 server when we tried to populate it (Even though now you have no qualms with spamming 'join our US server for extra credits!' as regular chat messages.

If you really want to consider when the time to do nothing was, it was a few months ago before you even made any of the changes. If you left well enough alone, you wouldn't be dealing with the shitshow of drama and controversy.

Deny, deflect, and gaslight all you want but none of this happened for zero reason, and the fire has only been stoked by the horrendous mismanagement of it all. The only win that any of us can take from this shitfest is that in your panic to draw people back, you're finally adding some map variety beyond 1 every year or so.
 
Where exactly did I say this?
You didn't have to. Changing the server without warning is enough to say that either we can deal with playing on a 40 player payload server, or find an alternative. Actions speak for themselves, everyone knows this.
Yes this is coming from most people who said the server isn't declining. Doesn't mean I am talking about you or 1 out of 20 people.
Not sure I understand what you are saying so I will point out both sides of what you could be saying. If you mean people who only get on an hour or two are not the ones complaining, then those people are not really your regulars keeping the server alive. If you are saying the complainers are the ones only getting on for an hour, then my point is that the changes and communication of the changes had demotivated regulars from playing in recent months, which would explain that.
 
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First you make the claim that since half the eu server is already americans then that somehow doesn't count.
we are talking about the EU server, obviously your priority on the EU server should be europeans, duh, americans are like faux players, they might join - or not because they have their own server

And your server filling at 8 pm PST sure looks healthy and thriving to me (not).
the only reason i responded was because of the shitty sarcasm above which makes it seem like the eu server is filling up at 8 am pst which it most definitely is not

you keep misrepresenting most of the things i say, it feels like you cant read but i must say, masterful ragebait
i was not referring to what i wrote just then, it was also about the previous times IN THIS thread where you have addressed only some out of all of my points or taken them out of context


And as explained, we force lerp because idiots install mastercomfig which sets their lerp to 0, and then they complain that our servers lag. The lerp settings we have now are default and its been argued that lower lerp is not superior.
Also what flange kinda said, shitty optimisation , low fps (worsened by 40 players) makes people search for a solution thus installing mastercomfig or any other cfg. I will also not take any excuses about 30 lerp being "just as good" because I actually have played on the server quite a lot before and since the switch and it is awful, before writing anything about lerp again I suggest you go play spy in payload 40 players and see for yourself how good 30 lerp is.
 
You did however, mute a player who advertised your own EU Payload 2 server when we tried to populate it (Even though now you have no qualms with spamming 'join our US server for extra credits!' as regular chat messages.
When did this happen? Do you happen to have a sourceban link. This is ridiculous if this is true
 
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Then it went back down when we changed it to 32 slots again.
You never reverted EU though, you expected us to fill another server instead of reverting the original one because you perfectly knew that the second server wouldn't fill
And as explained, we force lerp because idiots install mastercomfig which sets their lerp to 0, and then they complain that our servers lag. The lerp settings we have now are default and its been argued that lower lerp is not superior.
So because some retards the rest has to pay? I invite you to play any melee based archetype with 30 lerp and then play with casual settings and you'll notice the difference, but for that you'll have to play on your servers ;)
The server reaches those numbers all the time from reserved slot users.
In US maybe, in EU that didn't happen, we reached 34 at most and in Christmas and not many times
 
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