New Changing Payload Servers to 40 player is a mistake

[Sam Alt-Man]

I searched the forum but don't see discussion on the recent change. Changing the PL server to allow up to 40 players (plus VIP if any) is a mistake. The rounds already feel different. Areas of the map that were already prone to being unbalanced toward RED or BLU now feel unplayable at times. 32 was already a stretch beyond how the game was designed, but usually works. This takes it way beyond what these maps can handle. I'd vote we change it back.

 

[Bottiger]

is it expected for these servers to filled during the day?

It's not daytime everywhere in the world. Servers like this used to be filled 24/7. I don't expect this anymore, but it really needs to be better than this in order to survive long term.

The payload server should not be 100% empty as I am typing this.

Also, I think the point about advertising was that we have seen other Skial Servers advertised in-game on EU... Parkour, Warioware, and others

And how many players do those servers have right now? zero...

because why would players want spend their time advertising it for days on end.

Because where else would they go? What else are you going to do? If it is to be believed that you are a server reg, then all you have to do is be on the 40 slot server while the 32 slot one is empty.

Unless you are pestering people to join 32 slots and they don't really want to, you are not doing this for a long period of time. If they aren't switching fast enough, then most people really don't prefer 32 slots.

 

[bowwow]

I never advertised the 32 player server at all. And the point of my message in the thread was pointing out how it felt the 32 player server felt like it was added and deliberately made to fail so someone could rub it in the faces of the people who wanted it. You do not need to advertise any server, but just like letting people know there is a new warioware server you should let people know there is a server with 32 players.
There was absolutely no communication when making the server 32->40 or when you were making a new 32 player server.

My second point was that the initial reasons for adding the 40 player server was that it filled up later and emptied out quicker as well as the wait times to get in altough nothing has changed in that regard not on workdays, not on weekends. So it felt like this was done on a whim and who knows maybe it was.

And payload EU is now doing better than payload US.

The 32 player server usually had americans who joined the EU server when US was empty or full, it is the same now, the amount of players on EU has barely changed as well, it might feel like because the server is full it is doing better but there were always some people sitting in queue, and there still is when americans join. I do not think you can definitively say a server is doing better without acknowledging how and why the server was how it was before.

As i said before saying that people prefer the 40 player server would be kind of false, I've seen only one person on the server ever openly express satisfaction about it being 40 players, yet I hear constant whining about projectile spam, shit performance and bad hitreg - all issues caused or enhanced by 40 players, but oh well maybe they do not know 40 players is to blame for not being able to have fun in most stages of the game. The text chat is almost solely people just complaining at this point.

The main point I had expressed in the message before was just to remove the 32 player server if you felt it was unnecessary before. I do not want to argue because I do not care, the server was fun to play on beforehand, now it is not, if you want to rot in a server for 2 hours and then question why you joined because it was not fun in the slightest - you will love skial 40 players, the only redeeming thing is the people, the only reason I still join skial is because all talk is on.

 

[Bottiger]

I never advertised the 32 player server at all.

I'm not saying you did. I'm saying this person already did and got every single player to move over for 1-2 days to the point where the 40 slot server was completely empty for the last 2 hours of the day when EU was active.

https://www.skial.com/threads/peopl...-are-out-of-control.121387/page-5#post-897480

If this guy can do that, then so can anybody else. It seems way more effective than having a chat announcement which practically does nothing.

 

[MDuka]

I think we should have a 9v9 server 1 max per class!

 

[D_Ink]

I'm not saying you did. I'm saying this person already did and got every single player to move over for 1-2 days to the point where the 40 slot server was completely empty for the last 2 hours of the day when EU was active.

https://www.skial.com/threads/peopl...-are-out-of-control.121387/page-5#post-897480

If this guy can do that, then so can anybody else. It seems way more effective than having a chat announcement which practically does nothing.

Really can't tell anymore whether you're deliberately gaslighting us or you can't see how contradictory all your answers have been throughout this whole "discussion" :/

 

[Eriknaitor]

I think we should have a 9v9 server 1 max per class!

Make it 32vs32 only demoman locked

 

[Bottiger]

Really can't tell anymore whether you're deliberately gaslighting us or you can't see how contradictory all your answers have been throughout this whole "discussion" :/

There's nothing "contradictory" about it.

Getting everyone to move to 32 slot payload for 2 days and then the fad wears off does not prove your point. The 32 slot server was 100% empty every single day after that for a month.

 

[D_Ink]

There's nothing "contradictory" about it.

Getting everyone to move to 32 slot payload for 2 days and then the fad wears off does not prove your point. The 32 slot server was 100% empty every single day after that for a month.

It's not an argument I wish to continue or explain in detail, but most of the complaints have been about the handling and communication [lack of] surrounding the whole thing, and how it's difficult to understand why none of what you explain about eu payload decisions seem to apply to the US server which is also empty all day and was reverted from 40 back to 32.

Your communication with EU players comes across as patronising , dismissive and even vindictive, when all we have really wanted is some proper communication about about why and what you are doing with EU seems to contradict how you run US....well..and also that EU_PL is a low frame spam fest now...but yea, your detailed answer to Sonic in another thread is a massive contrast to how you reply to us here:/

 

[Bottiger]

and how it's difficult to understand why none of what you explain about eu payload decisions seem to apply to the US server which is also empty all day and was reverted from 40 back to 32.

The US server is not empty all day. You just do not see when it gets filled because you are an EU player.

The reason why the US server was changed back to 32 was an experiment. And as we can see, the 40 slot EU server is doing vastly better.

your detailed answer to Sonic in another thread is a massive contrast to how you reply to us here:/

Because the people there, so far do not refuse to look and deny the evidence, unlike the people here.

 

[D_Ink]

The US server is not empty all day. You just do not see when it gets filled because you are an EU player.

The reason why the US server was changed back to 32 was an experiment. And as we can see, the 40 slot EU server is doing vastly better.


Because the people there, so far do not refuse to look and deny the evidence, unlike the people here.

I play on US every night, I see when it fills up, I see it is a couple of players seeding with bots until later in the evening and have US friends that play on EU while they wait for US to fill up. The graphs on the Server stats don't seem to show a massive discrepancy between peaks at night/low daytime.

I've never refused to look at/denied any evidence, I've expressed that the server change damaged the gameplay and continues to do so, but, I have only asked questions after conceding that the population is fine and noone cared enough to use the other server.

I'm interested in what the 'experiment' was. I'm interested in why it's deemed bad for EU to have no players at 4am UK time [the time you posted saying it shouldn't be empty] but US is empty now and it's fine. I'm interested in having some genuine insightful replies such as the one you gave Sonic, rather than terse answers assuming I'm only complaining about getting things changed.

 

[Paolitux]

this was my last VIP i think cause i payed for a 32 slot , not a 40 one. u dont listen to your players.

 

[Jeffel]

There's nothing "contradictory" about it.

Getting everyone to move to 32 slot payload for 2 days and then the fad wears off does not prove your point. The 32 slot server was 100% empty every single day after that for a month.

You also instituted a dark pattern here and aren't really being very scientific at all. Make the original server and IP combination for EU the 32 player slot one and I bet that will be the full one and 40 will wither away just as well. There's a regularity and rhythm people are following. You've proved nothing other than that it takes effort to get people to switch a habit, and when someone did, it worked -- but briefly, because no one was continually reinforcing it. If you want to test it and really run the experiment on EU -- make the 40 slot 32 player, and make the 'new' the 40 slot and see what happens.

Edit: Sorry, meant to reply to post #172 not #174

Edit 2: To add -- I don't even use server browser to find Skial anymore as when I play I have a macro 'joinskial' that's tied to the IP I know I want to join. So, not only is it a habit, it's a coded one I'd have to take time to change when I want to game. I imagine at the very least most had the server bookmarked to faves and used that, without putting effort to come to the site and see the new 32 player option. There was no A/B test or preference choice here. Just a dark pattern that funneled existing traffic into the existing change. Run the experiment properly before you're claiming to experiment.

 

[Bottiger]

You also instituted a dark pattern here and aren't really being very scientific at all. Make the original server and IP combination for EU the 32 player slot one and I bet that will be the full one and 40 will wither away just as well. There's a regularity and rhythm people are following. You've proved nothing other than that it takes effort to get people to switch a habit, and when someone did, it worked -- but briefly, because no one was continually reinforcing it. If you want to test it and really run the experiment on EU -- make the 40 slot 32 player, and make the 'new' the 40 slot and see what happens.

I won't deny that if I left the original server at 32 slots that would be the one that is filled and the new one would be empty. The global TF2 population has been shrinking in the past few months.

But I already proved and showed numbers that the player counts increased after the slots increased to 40 on the same server and that the US server is doing worse after it switched back to 32 slots.

The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise even if it means having to fill a brand new server. People here claim that regs make up most of the server and are responsible for the popularity of the server. You all managed to do it for 1-2 hours for 2 days, why can't you keep doing it if the increase in slots is really so bad?

 

[Strudels]

No one is arguing about numbers. They are arguing about fun. It seems a widely held opinion that 40 is less fun, and plenty of proof has been brought forth for that. Make the server have 50 slots and the count will go up. Give it 60 and it will go up. You can keep doing this until you hit the cap of how many players will join the server at peak hours. If player count is the only thing that matters, then it's easy to go for 48 and beyond. Push the limits of what is tolerable.

 

[Bottiger]

If it isn't fun then people won't keep joining. More slots does not automatically mean more players.

 

[bowwow]

If you're now making us play on the 40 player server then at least make the experience not shit, remove all accessories so the fps isn't awful and other optimizations (but I know you're not gonna do that and people would be even more mad) and make the lerp acceptable so it doesn't force you at 30 - it feels like the server is powered by a hamster.

If it isn't fun then people won't keep joining. More slots does not automatically mean more players.

Actually more slots does mean more players. Playing spy is already awful, not fun and not worth it, with 30 lerp forced on you and 40 players making the experience overly difficult and rage inducing, half of your stabs don't even work but i still see spy mains playing on this god damned server. Why? Because of the community, i've said this like 2 other times. People join because the regulars essentially seed the server, and other regulars join because they a see a friend playing on the server, yeah it's not just regulars but they join because they see players on the server and because almost anything is better than casual, not to mention this is one of the few EU servers that allows all talk. I won't even talk about the fact that players from the US join almost every evening despite not being able to consider them "regulars".
The 32 player server also usually had like 3 people in queue as well.

I think you are either ragebaiting or just so stuck up that you're not willing to read what is actually being said.

 

[Strudels]

You're entire argument is that adding more slots increased the player count though. So add more slots and don't let your personal grievances about the complainers being mean stop you from achieving peak skial and maximum ad revenue.

 

[Bottiger]

You are making the assumption that increasing slots automatically increases the number of players that join. That is false. We opened multiple 64 slot and even 100 slot servers that didn't fill. If people didn't like it, they will not join.

We make decisions based on what is best for the server in the long term and it looks like more people prefer a larger slot count compared to a smaller amount.

 

[bowwow]

No offense but if even 2fort players ( https://www.skial.com/threads/make-skial-2fort-eu-back-to-32-from-64.123118/ ) do not like more than 32 players then that means this was a horrible change for a PAYLOAD server where I often ,i.e., every time I join, see players actually take the game seriously.

 

[Bottiger]

The complainers are coming out because their favorite settings died out. Nobody that is satisfied with 64 slots will bother to be here to complain or voice their satisfaction.