New [VSH] Unban loose cannon, but take away it's ability to push players back on direct hits

[Whurr]

the main reason loose cannon got banned in VSH was because RED could abuse crouch tunnels with it, and the only hales who could really fight back against it were either HHHjr, CBS or gspy (the former because they have teleport, and the latter because they have a ranged weapon they get ammo for everytime they use rage) and even if you knew how to fight against it, you weren't always guaranteed to kill all of the demos doing it.
currently, in vanilla TF2, the loose cannon has these attributes:
466: grenade launcher mortar mode (this is why you can "cook" your LC shots and why they have a much shorter fuse time over other grenades, and also why you can greandejump on demand with the LC, also known as "cannonjumping")
103: Projectile speed increased (20% isn't that much because of an issue with the mass on the vphysics model)
467: grenade not explode on impact (this makes loose cannon projectiles not explode on contact with an enemy player)
and finally:
477: cannonball push back (despite saying it pushes players around, this attribute does not make the projectile knock players around.)

what i am going to suggest is:
add attribute 280: override projectile type and set it to 3. this replaces the cannonball with a regular grenade. this disables the ability to push players around with the loose cannon.
change attribute 103 from 1.20 to 1.35 (the shorter fuse time gives LC cannonballs much shorter travel distance compared to the rest of demo's GLs, this would just let it travel a bit further before detonating)

would this make it less unique from the other GLs? yes, but it's better than completely banning a weapon because one attribute on it made it too problematic on certain maps. but keep in mind that you can still grenadejump on demand with the LC, something you can't reliably do with demo's other primaries.

edit: OP has been updated changing "remove attribute 477" to "add attribute 280"

 

[True Darkian]

Last time I heard, it was removed because the knockback was hardcoded on the Loose Cannon projectiles so it couldn't be removed from it right?

What about if you equip a Loose Cannon, it gets replaced by a stock Grenade Launcher with different stats?
It is possible, Spy gets his sappers replaced by a tranquilizer or a throwing knife and Heavy used to have his Natascha replaced by an altered minigun.

 

[Whurr]

Last time I heard, it was removed because the knockback was hardcoded on the Loose Cannon projectiles so it couldn't be removed from it right?

What about if you equip a Loose Cannon, it gets replaced by a stock Grenade Launcher with different stats?
It is possible, Spy gets his sappers replaced by a tranquilizer or a throwing knife and Heavy used to have his Natascha replaced by an altered minigun.

updated OP with a different attribute suggestion. tested it in mvm and the projectile override means it won't knock players around.
video demonstration:

 

[Bottiger]

what's the point if you turn it into a regular grenade launcher?

 

[Whurr]

what's the point if you turn it into a regular grenade launcher?

i could also ask why warrior's spirit is allowed even though it is a far worse KGB (same damage, but now the downside is you die in 1 hit with the WS out, regardless of how much health you have. the only real upside WS has over KGB is you can use your minigun. but if you're equipping a melee because it does "big damage" why would you want to use your ranged weapons over it when hale gets close to you? doesn't that just defeat the entire purpose of equipping a melee that does "big damage on hit"?)
the only realistic way LC would ever come back is if you slapped a -40% slower reload speed on it, and even that's not going to stop 4 demos from camping the vents in abandoned warehouse and mario kart. the only time LC has been "problematic" is crouchtunnels, and the same can be said for huntsman (stunlocks that require a near-perfectly timed rage to escape from, unless there's 2 snipers trapping you, then the game is basically over unless someone blocks one of the snipers. partner taunts don't work in crouchtunnels because you need to be standing to perform them.)

a TL;DR would be that i just want the LC unbanned, and unless you yourself come up with some better solution that isn't just "keep the LC banned" then you are by all means free to try.

 

[True Darkian]

what's the point if you turn it into a regular grenade launcher?

My comment was to replicate the Loose Cannon's stats but without the knockback on the "stock" Grenade Launcher if you equip the Loose Cannon.

Stock Grenade Launcher stays normal if you equip stock.

 

[chungy]

I think 4 demos camping in vents is not loose cannon's fault, imo its the map design, if you just don't put in those vents where the hale can't reach even with rage, slap loose cannon with a 50% smaller clip size it would be okay, but people who are really skillful and vote cinema as soon as it appears probably wouldn't be really happy if their only way to play the game got taken away from them so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[True Darkian]

I think 4 demos camping in vents is not loose cannon's fault, imo its the map design, if you just don't put in those vents where the hale can't reach even with rage, slap loose cannon with a 50% smaller clip size it would be okay, but people who are really skillful and vote cinema as soon as it appears probably wouldn't be really happy if their only way to play the game got taken away from them so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Or do -75% clip size and a good reload penalty so even with knockback, the hale can still get closer through the vents.

 

[chungy]

Or do -75% clip size and a good reload penalty so even with knockback, the hale can still get closer through the vents.

so like the loch n load?

 

[smurfking]

+1

don't know why so many people cry about the knockback in the first place. VSH barely has any knockback now-a-days. don't see the problem with camping LC players either since everyone is already so used to spamming rage. just rage them, it isn't anything hard. Shouldn't ban a weapon just because it finally presents the hale with a challenge.

Your suggestion is reasonable but honestly just bring back the normal LC. losing a hale round isn't the end of the world is it? Ive also never seen any of this "camping demo" tactic actually work properly. Just banning the actual fun weapons for no reason, while your at it making VSH unfun might aswell buff knockback on FaN

 

[True Darkian]

so like the loch n load?

Does it work like that now?
Just 1 clip?

The benefit of this non KB Loose Cannon is that you can charge shots and bomb jump tho.

 

[Zeke Aileron]

Loose Cannon did have 1 clip size in a previous balance change before, and it did work for a while till it got reverted back to 4 clip and -% reload speed before being weapon banned.

Plus if anything, Knockback in Skial VSH is still lot tamer than most other VSH servers I've played on though, so seeing it banned and not replaced with anything else on round start is not a good alternative still...

So far I'm still staying with -1 considering Stock LC is knockback reliant and removing it makes it not worth equipping over Stock in general.

 

[Bottiger]

i could also ask why warrior's spirit is allowed even though it is a far worse KGB (same damage, but now the downside is you die in 1 hit with the WS out, regardless of how much health you have.

you could ask that and I will tell you that mub and whatever people he listened to for balance ideas were responsible for 99% of the weapon changes from stock vsh.

Loose cannon is banned because the knockback cannot be controlled. We can control every other source of knockback in the game so the boss builds resistance to it. Making the loose cannon act like a regular grenade launcher will remove the reason why people used the loose cannon in the first place, it allows you to knockback the boss forever.

 

[True Darkian]

you could ask that and I will tell you that mub and whatever people he listened to for balance ideas were responsible for 99% of the weapon changes from stock vsh.

Loose cannon is banned because the knockback cannot be controlled. We can control every other source of knockback in the game so the boss builds resistance to it. Making the loose cannon act like a regular grenade launcher will remove the reason why people used the loose cannon in the first place, it allows you to knockback the boss forever.

Mub's balancing is very old now, perhaps it is time for some new rebalances? Some weapons are still overpowered and others never see use.

 

[Bob 247]

i could also ask why warrior's spirit is allowed even though it is a far worse KGB (same damage, but now the downside is you die in 1 hit with the WS out, regardless of how much health you have. the only real upside WS has over KGB is you can use your minigun. but if you're equipping a melee because it does "big damage" why would you want to use your ranged weapons over it when hale gets close to you? doesn't that just defeat the entire purpose of equipping a melee that does "big damage on hit"?)
the only realistic way LC would ever come back is if you slapped a -40% slower reload speed on it, and even that's not going to stop 4 demos from camping the vents in abandoned warehouse and mario kart. the only time LC has been "problematic" is crouchtunnels, and the same can be said for huntsman (stunlocks that require a near-perfectly timed rage to escape from, unless there's 2 snipers trapping you, then the game is basically over unless someone blocks one of the snipers. partner taunts don't work in crouchtunnels because you need to be standing to perform them.)

a TL;DR would be that i just want the LC unbanned, and unless you yourself come up with some better solution that isn't just "keep the LC banned" then you are by all means free to try.

Tbh if the problem is the knockback just remove it, demomen now use scottish resistance in vents and tunnels, which is both effective and equally annoying as getting pushed. if you want to rework the LC just do like the mvm nukesalot. 3 reserve ammo which can not be restored with pickups, 1200 damage with shield 600 if sticky launcher, very low reload speed, like VERY slow reload. And no knockback of course. Demo can deal 1800 damage with pipes already so this wouldn't be too strong, just a gimmick

 

[Bottiger]

Tbh if the problem is the knockback just remove it

If you paid attention you would see the knockback can't be removed without turning it into a regular grenade launcher.

So there's no point in making more busy work just so people can have a loose cannon model but everything else about it acts like a regular grenade launcher.

Mub's balancing is very old now, perhaps it is time for some new rebalances? Some weapons are still overpowered and others never see use.

I think the weapon balances are good enough. It is never going to be perfect. People are always going to ask for more changes because everyone has a different opinion.