Adding a "toxicity" rule to the servers

[Metroidz]

They also should learn to form their own opinion on things, and not by what others say.

These people won't learn to think for themselves if they just listen and believe what random strangers on the internet say.

That's how I met my girlfriend. I told her I had a 10 inch dong and was a millionaire. What a silly bitch.

 

[Maddo]

Why are our players less likely to use reddit? I don't see any logical explanation for that.

No real idea why this would be or even if this is the case, but it might explain why negative comments aren't defended as much as you would like.

And people don't need to scroll through a years worth of /r/tf2. They just need to search "skial" in youtube or look at /r/tf2 posts in the past week.

Players looking for a server aren't going to be heading to youtube and searching 'skial' if they know of the existence of skial they would have played on a server at least once.
Doesn't the news watch section monitor reddit for mentions of skial? according to this, there doesn't look to be that many negative posts on there at all.

 

[Maddo]

girlfriend

Yes, don't believe what people tell you on the internet.

 

[JayDee]

Why are our players less likely to use reddit? I don't see any logical explanation for that.

skial players are based

 

[Metroidz]

Yes, don't believe what people tell you on the internet.

Yeah she lied to me too, I believed what she said on the internet........
her dong was actually longer than mine.

 

[Maddo]

Yeah she lied to me too, I believed what she said on the internet........
her dong was actually longer than mine.

She's probably got a fuller beard as well.

 

[Bottiger]

Players looking for a server aren't going to be heading to youtube and searching 'skial' if they know of the existence of skial they would have played on a server at least once.
Doesn't the news watch section monitor reddit for mentions of skial? according to this, there doesn't look to be that many negative posts on there at all.

There are dozens of reasons why a player might search for skial and letting that drive their decision on which tf2 server to play on. There aren't that many videos being made for TF2 and these things often pop up in recommended for anyone that's ever had tf2 in their browsing history.

The reddit comments are also being posted almost every single day when someone complains about bots in casual.

Most of them are in the comments. They are posted on discord because it would flood the forums if every comment was posted there.

 

[KinCryos]

Except they get like 20 positive comments for every 1 negative one. And all the positive ones get a large number of upvotes.

likely due to their users votebrigading, which isn't caught by the system because they're already active in r/tf2

 

[Maddo]

There are dozens of reasons why a player might search for skial and letting that drive their decision on which tf2 server to play on. There aren't that many videos being made for TF2 and these things often pop up in recommended for anyone that's ever had tf2 in their browsing history.

The reddit comments are also being posted almost every single day when someone complains about bots in casual.

Most of them are in the comments. They are posted on discord because it would flood the forums if every comment was posted there.

Well if the comments are that frequent and everybody agrees and nobody defends skial, it must be a high level of toxicity on the servers.
However, you know just as well as I do that the toxic behaviour is going to be no different than in most other tf2 community servers (especially the larger operators where there is a higher volume of players coming and going).
In fact I will say, that in the years I have been around here, I have seen very few instances of what I would term as real toxic behaviour, I'm not talking about the likes of racism, or sexism that is not directed toward anyone specific. I'm talking about the real shit of people constantly harrasing and targeting individuals just to make their lives a misery or drive them to fear of their safety.
If im completely wrong, then the way I guess to address the problem, is to take on more admin, have a constant presence on every server.

 

[Bottiger]

Well if the comments are that frequent and everybody agrees and nobody defends skial, it must be a high level of toxicity on the servers.
However, you know just as well as I do that the toxic behaviour is going to be no different than in most other tf2 community servers (especially the larger operators where there is a higher volume of players coming and going).
In fact I will say, that in the years I have been around here, I have seen very few instances of what I would term as real toxic behaviour, I'm not talking about the likes of racism, or sexism that is not directed toward anyone specific. I'm talking about the real shit of people constantly harrasing and targeting individuals just to make their lives a misery or drive them to fear of their safety.
If im completely wrong, then the way I guess to address the problem, is to take on more admin, have a constant presence on every server.

I mean I agree that there isn't really that high of a level of toxicity. Most of it is just banned players trying to get revenge on us or competing communities trying to take us down.

But just because these shills are exaggerating the problems doesn't mean it doesn't mean we should just ignore it.

As I've tried showing people here through multiple screenshots and youtube videos, our servers being "toxic" is a frequent rallying cry for these people. And it has become so prevalent and constant, that we should seriously consider taking measures to remove these excuses so they can't make the image stick to new players.

Remember when many players thought we were saigns? A lot of those players avoided playing on our servers just because that's what they were told on reddit and steam. Having a good reputation matters.

 

[Mr.Colin]

New Skial player here and figured I should share some input. To me the biggest turn off towards further engaging with the community is how often I see the current rules against racism and other prejudices being violated. Not so much the toxicity. However, given what I have seen it would not surprise me if that became an issue. The amount of slurs I've heard being dropped from Skial regulars (probably just kids trying to be 'funny') is honestly ridiculous. If not for the lack of other "full" servers of the community browsers I doubt I would have stuck around.

As far as toxicity goes, I think rules should be defined around personal attacks or harassment outside of game related banter. As an example, I was in a game yesterday where a player had just joined and typed
"!Items"
To which someone else replied
"!gof***yourself"

While this is not the "most toxic" thing I've seen on the internet it was completely uncalled for and I don't think that really has an acceptable defense.

All that being said I have also had several wholesome interactions and friendly banter with others in the community. I just feel it is a shame that it took so long to eventually find those moments

 

[Maddo]

I was in a game yesterday where a player had just joined and typed
"!Items"
To which someone else replied
"!gof***yourself"

See, now that to me is just funny, I can see humour in this.

we should seriously consider taking measures to remove these excuses so they can't make the image stick to new players.

Well, like you said: "I agree that there isn't really that high of a level of toxicity" - So, how do you tackle something that is virtually non existent?
Might need someone to ask everyone on reddit that calls skial toxic, to explain and ask for an example, just to get out in the open what they class as toxic. If it's something like 'racism' ' discrimination' etc etc, point out that its against the rules and people are constantly being banned for these reasons and we always welcome reports of this sort of behaviour.
A lot of the time they wont have an answer, and will be exposed for just basically stiring shit. either way, when anyone does read that post, they will see what really is going on, rather than just seeing 'skial is toxic' - dont argue with them, or disagree, just try and find out from them exactly what the problem is and that might also give you the answer you're looking for.
In the meantime, put "we do not allow toxic behaviour on our servers, harrasing and/or threatening other players will get you permanently muted or banned" into the rules or even as a message on the servers.

 

[Bottiger]

See, now that to me is just funny, I can see humour in this.

Well, like you said: "I agree that there isn't really that high of a level of toxicity" - So, how do you tackle something that is virtually non existent?
Might need someone to ask everyone on reddit that calls skial toxic, to explain and ask for an example, just to get out in the open what they class as toxic.

The 1st step is to have a written rule against it, so you can at least say that it's against the rules.

The 2nd step is to admit that it does happen, even though it is being greatly exaggerated.

Really it just comes down to this:

Pros of doing something

• Maybe the servers become even less "toxic" and becoming better than it already is.
• We take away one of the main arguments people use to tell everyone not to play on our servers.
• Maybe leading to more populated servers, but at the very least stopping declines from people trying to ruin our reputation on social media.

Pros of doing nothing

• You feel free to say whatever you want on the servers.

I mean you know I like to side on the part of unfettered free speech, that's why we didn't have any rules about it for so long. But over the years I've realized that it doesn't work for a TF2 community. You will have trolls derailing threads and people that just live to pick fights with other people, which isn't conducive to forming a community as you can see with the forums.

There really aren't any places on the internet that are 100% free speech either. Even places you'd think that are like that such as 4chan, they have armies of moderators that delete things that are too out of line with their thinking that they can't argue with.

 

[G3n]

I have previously played on Skial servers before, here's my two cents:

I would avoid Skial servers before the botpocalypse because of the toxicity explicitly. It's not uncommon as others have said here to see regulars saying some gross things and people agreeing with them or whatever.

Nowadays I simply play on Skial for the most varied players, BECAUSE it is the biggest community. That's all.

A toxicity rule would be greatly appreciated if only to also add some level of comfort. It's a bit difficult to swallow no action being even potentially taken against someone being extremely toxic at the time. Players even just knowing there's a rule against it will help imo because then they feel there is some action that could be done. Otherwise, they feel there's nothing they can do so why bother staying.

Of course this is coming from a random casual tf2 player who's primarily only queued casual servers until recently :)


*EDIT*: here's an example from only just today, I see this ALL the time:

 

[Blade D_Hero]

People don’t report players actually breaking the rules and then complain that the servers are toxic. Like they just expect an admin to be patrolling 24/7 and when someone does something against the rules they are immediately dealt with. You see it constantly with people that join the discord, with conversations like the following occurring every so often:

“So and so on the turbine server is throwing racial slurs around”
Did you report them?
“No? Just join the server”
I did, he’s not saying anything
“Well he was, why can’t you ban him?”
There’s no proof. Did you record a demo?
“Why would I do that? You admins are useless.”

People can’t be bothered to actually make a report and then whine about the servers being full of degenerates, leading them to stop playing on the servers. The only actual solution is to substantially increase the admin team, but that can come with its own problems. Personally, I feel like there are enough rules for most “toxic” things people do on the servers. You can add a blurb about continued harassment or something along those lines, but at the same time just having admins who can deal with a one-off toxic person already happens. Who cares if some annoying shitstirrer says “well AKTCHUALLY the rules didn’t say I couldn’t repeatedly threaten to hunt someone down and kill them so you guys are admin abusers,” just keep the ban/silence and move on.

 

[Bottiger]

Who cares if some annoying shitstirrer says “well AKTCHUALLY the rules didn’t say I couldn’t repeatedly threaten to hunt someone down and kill them so you guys are admin abusers,” just keep the ban/silence and move on.

If admins are already doing that often, then why not make it a formal rule?

If it's the case that most of the complaints about toxicity is because of lack of reports or admins on the server 24/7, that's another issue, but I don't think it would be wise to assume so before we even have a rule about it.

It could be that most people don't bother reporting whatever they deem toxic because they don't see it in the rules.

 

[Antamania]

If admins are already doing that often, then why not make it a formal rule?

If it's the case that most of the complaints about toxicity is because of lack of reports or admins on the server 24/7, that's another issue, but I don't think it would be wise to assume so before we even have a rule about it.

It could be that most people don't bother reporting whatever they deem toxic because they don't see it in the rules.

My input on this, if there must be a new rule, I would suggest something like this:
"Toxicity that goes beyond in-game trash talk may be actioned."

I'd also consider putting an addendum in the rules about how admins can't be everywhere, so if there is a situation people need admin intervention on, please report it.

I think with the way it's worded you establish boundaries, but reasonable ones. I still think it's a bit blanket, but as you said, you are unlikely to come up with a rule that satisfies everyone. I think between that, and the add in the rules to call an admin if they need help, you won't really have much good faith complaints against you.

For the record, still not loving the clampdown on speech in the servers, but after reading this thread, and direct conversation with you, I understand a bit more of the issues you are facing. I know this is not something lightly done.

 

[Maddo]

The 1st step is to have a written rule against it, so you can at least say that it's against the rules.

That's the point, just using the term 'toxicity' is too broad, and there is differing viewpoints on what being toxic is.

The 2nd step is to admit that it does happen, even though it is being greatly exaggerated.

Nobody disputes that there are 'toxic' people on the servers, indeed in every walk of life you will find them.

Maybe the servers become even less "toxic" and becoming better than it already is.

Maybe.

We take away one of the main arguments people use to tell everyone not to play on our servers.

Just because there is a rule written, it doesn't mean it will stop people slagging off Skial.

Maybe leading to more populated servers, but at the very least stopping declines from people trying to ruin our reputation on social media.

These are the same points as the other two, but combined into one statement.

Pros of doing nothing

• You feel free to say whatever you want on the servers.

This isn't the case now.

I mean you know I like to side on the part of unfettered free speech, that's why we didn't have any rules about it for so long. But over the years I've realized that it doesn't work for a TF2 community.

I don't think the problem is with free speech or not. I think that free speech is the ability to speak your mind, to have your say on a matter, to be honest about your feelings. Free speech is not a tool to target and oppress/threaten an individual or group.

From everything I can see, most of what people deem to be toxic is covered under the rules already (racism, discrimination, griefing, cheating). The things that are not covered by the rules are threatening other players, stalking, and singling out a specific person to harrass.

 

[Maddo]

"Toxicity that goes beyond in-game trash talk may be actioned."

I can just hear it now "That was just in-game trash talk, admins on skial are nazis"

 

[Antamania]

I can just hear it now "That was just in-game trash talk, admins on skial are nazis"

You're definitely not wrong, but however the rule is worded, people are going to say that anyway. Even if it was a blanket "toxicity" rule, you'll still ban people, and they'll still claim they were just talking a little trash, not being toxic.

From what I'm understanding, admins are already actioning toxicity, he just wants a rule in place so he can point to it when people complain on reddit.

I'm still not entirely on board with banning blanket "toxicity", and I was simply trying to offer something that makes it clear that actual toxic people, not clowns, are going to find themselves actioned.