Approved [VSH] Remove project powerup map

[Meowcenary]

The VSH map gives custom class buffs which greatly unbalance the game mode causing most hales to lose. An example is huntsman snipers being able to move faster than running speed with their huntsman bow pulled, medics getting extremely quick healing boosts also giving them very quick ubers, spies can also instantly cloak and decloak IIRC and many other over the top buffs

If any hale does manage to survive and kill off most of the players the round usually gets dragged to a stalemate from the jump pads in the middle of the map players use to evade the boss for a extended period of time. The jump pads also give 2 types of random momentum making it even more difficult and time consuming to chase down the players delaying the rounds

The capture point can also be captured way too quickly and is tucked away in a awkward location allowing for very easy and quick captures to anyone who is camping out in the area waiting for the point to become available.

And overall the map feels very awkward and clunky. It's layout makes finding hale a chore at times since there's so many places for the boss to go and to launch himself to with the jump pads, and its overall layout feels over complicated in a unneeded way with extra rooms and areas that feel unnecessary for a VSH map.

It's also strangely difficult to locate where the boss is on this map at times, something other players have been pointing out so I know its not just me. This is usually not a issue on most maps for the most part, but this map especially has that problem.

 

[Luke]

+1

I'm not sure why the map was added this quickly to begin with.
Due to the class changes that it makes, it needs to be seriously looked at.
The entire balance of the game will be hard to figure out by doing this.
How can the plugin be balanced if each map was to modify classes?

 

[Fragancia]

The VSH map gives custom class buffs which greatly unbalance the game mode causing most hales to lose. An example is huntsman snipers being able to move faster than running speed with their huntsman bow pulled, medics getting extremely quick healing boosts also giving them very quick ubers, spies can also instantly cloak and decloak IIRC and many other over the top buffs

If any hale does manage to survive and kill off most of the players the round usually gets dragged to a stalemate from the jump pads in the middle of the map players use to evade the boss for a extended period of time. The jump pads also give 2 types of random momentum making it even more difficult and time consuming to chase down the players delaying the rounds

The capture point can also be captured way too quickly and is tucked away in a awkward location allowing for very easy and quick captures to anyone who is camping out in the area waiting for the point to become available.

And overall the map feels very awkward and clunky. It's layout makes finding hale a chore at times since there's so many places for the boss to go and to launch himself to with the jump pads, and its overall layout feels over complicated in a unneeded way with extra rooms and areas that feel unnecessary for a VSH map.

It's also strangely difficult to locate where the boss is on this map at times, something other players have been pointing out so I know its not just me. This is usually not a issue on most maps for the most part, but this map especially has that problem.

Hey, I'm here clear up a few things with what you have said, let's start with the huntsman since the way you worded it makes it seem huntsmen actually run faster when charging their shots even though it's clearly not the case. In regular play, the huntsman/sniper rifle when aiming slows your movement speed about 45% of the sniper's normal walking speed, in the map I decided to get rid of this slowdown to work just like how the Christian Brutal Sniper bow functions but the sniper doesn't get faster as his health degrades like the boss does, the sniper's movement speed stays the same regardless if you are aiming or not.
And as of version a17, it's 369 hammer units per second and the speed was nerfed to 354 hammer units in version A18, you can read more about A18 here https://www.skial.com/threads/map-update-thread-for-vsh_project_powerup.72949/#post-727003

I added this change to make huntsman more viable in close quarters combat and I feel it's a good change, giving players more reason to use this weapon, I always felt it underperformed compared to the rifles and it still kinda does but even less so now.
About the medic, I'm working on removing the health boost along with other nerfs in the next version, returning it to a default state.
I agree that spies are very powerful and greatly need nerfing which I have done in a18 which you can read about here
https://www.skial.com/threads/map-update-thread-for-vsh_project_powerup.72949/#post-727003

I've nerfed the jump pads, giving them a cooldown of 2 seconds between uses in a18 and on second thought I think 2 seconds isn't enough for the jump pads in the middle of the map, I'm considering changing it to 5 seconds or even more if it turns out they are that big of a problem, but I need more feedback on that as the map is in active development and mostly everything is subject to changing so let me know in the thread dedicated to update for project_powerup what you think.

I also agree with the capture points and I will make changes to it, adding 10-15s to the time needed to cap is what I'm thinking of doing but let me know what you think.

The layout is awkward, clunky and a chore? I can think of a few maps in the server map rotation which would fit that description

Spoiler: Clunky and awkward

vsh_toys_b2
vsh_spaaaaace_v1_fix_s3
vsh_rats_office_fix_b3a
vsh_turret_testing_b2
vsh_dust_showdown_final1
vsh_tower_of_peril_redux_v6
vsh_skyhigh_resort_gl_cap
vsh_remains_of_king_b1
vsh_outpost_v2

But seriously, that doesn't give me much to go on, can you clarify more about that?
The layout is rotationally symmetrical and smaller than most larger maps available in the map rotation but not too small like arena_shipment where it can become a problem, I tried to design it so it wouldn't take too long to chase hale down but also not too fast find him so he can take a slight breather from the action if it gets too hot from him to handle and he needs to back away for a second to regain composure before RED finds him if they're actively chasing him down.
I also don't see how the layout is "overcomplicated in unneeded way" can you explain more thoroughly about this?

When I get around to nerfing the jump pads in the center of the map, would what you are saying change since as I see it seems to be sort of based on that?

And with that said, I'd like to inform everyone once again that this map is in active development, things are subject to change and I'm here to change them if they're either too powerful or affects gameplay in an overly negative way.

Thanks for taking the time reading this post.

 

[Fragancia]

+1
How can the plugin be balanced if each map was to modify classes?

In order for a map to get on the servers, you need to make a suggestion about it and detailing mostly everything about it, so if there ever comes a map that changes the balance and it turns out the map maker made changes that severely disrupt gameplay and the map maker isn't willing to change it, you always reserve the right to refuse having that map on the servers or I should say @Bottiger does if he deems it to be detrimental to the whole experience. In my case, I'm willing to make changes in response to the feedback given to me.

 

[Luke]

In order for a map to get on the servers, you need to make a suggestion about it and detailing mostly everything about it, so if there ever comes a map that changes the balance and it turns out the map maker made changes that severely disrupt gameplay and the map maker isn't willing to change it, you always reserve the right to refuse having that map on the servers or I should say @Bottiger does if he deems it detrimental to the whole experience. In my case, I'm willing to make changes in response to the feedback given to me.

Yes - the map shouldn't have been added this quickly.

 

[Fragancia]

Yes - the map shouldn't have been added this quickly.

How would the map get playtested then? That was my suggestion with the map to iron out problems that arise with the map when played by people on the server and I've gotten ample feedback from this and making changes as we speak. I've already ironed out the most grave bugs in previous versions, and to do more I need players playing on the map and giving feedback.

 

[Luke]

How would the map get playtested then? That was my suggestion with the map to iron out problems that arise with the map when played by people on the server and I've gotten ample feedback from this and making changes as we speak. I've already ironed out the most grave bugs in previous versions, and to do more I need players playing on the map and giving feedback.

Minor tweaks to begin with, make a slight change - do people want more or less.
Rather than just immediately jumping straight in with reasonably big changes.
Especially troubling consindering that people will have to change strategies during map change.

 

[Fragancia]

Minor tweaks to begin with, make a slight change - do people want more or less.
Rather than just immediately jumping straight in with reasonably big changes.

But the map is in it's alpha stages where the big changes happen, it's far away from getting close to beta where the detailing of the map really begins?

Especially troubling consindering that people will have to change strategies during map change.

Isn't this a given? Why is this troubling? Of course there's a different strategy for every map depending on how the map is structured.
Not sure what you are going with that.

 

[Luke]

But the map is in it's alpha stages, where the big changes happen, it's far away from getting close to beta where the detailing of the map really begins?

You're making changes a lot bigger than most maps.
Most maps do not alter the class balance, at all.

Isn't this a given? Why is this troubling? Of course there's a different strategy for every map depending on how the map is structured.
Not sure what you are going with that.

You're changing how the actual classes play, the established balance throughout the other maps.

 

[Fragancia]

You're making changes a lot bigger than most maps.
Most maps do not alter the class balance, at all.

Well yeah of course, my map has much more going on with it than other maps which only serve as an environment to play on when my map is an environment that can be played on but also changes the existing class balance in a way I think it could benefit from and when parts of it is shown be detrimental from playtesting, naturally the changes made to it would be bigger than others.

You're changing how the actual classes play, the established balance throughout the other maps.

Are you worried about the potential confusion it might cause? I've taken steps against that, having a whiteboard-ish hang outside from where both teams spawn at explaining what abilities the classes have, you can also view it after you die since there's a dedicated spectator camera pointing at it so they can read it at their own leisure. I can change it if you think the information is too insufficient.

 

[Percilius]

Well i just tried this map and it has not impressed me too much.
- It has 2 capture points that too in 2 different corners of the map. A single capture point at the middle can be much better.
- Those jump pads at the middle are pretty annoying for a hale to kill people as they keep easily evading him.
- I am not a huge fan of all those custom sounds in the game.
- There are sooo many hallways, it can take forever to find the hale.
- The special abilities of each class is making the game really hard for the hale.

 

[Fragancia]

Well i just tried this map and it has not impressed me too much.
- It has 2 capture points that too in 2 different corners of the map. A single capture point at the middle can be much better.

The capture points in the map function similarly to your average one capture point in the middle type of deal except that for RED/Boss to win, they need to venture into the opposition's side capture point buildings and cap it once to win, basically to give an example, it's like arena_byre but without needing to capture both points and the points aren't available from the start like it does in Byre.
I'm curious though why you think a single control point is inherently better than what project_powerup has, please elaborate.

- Those jump pads at the middle are pretty annoying for a hale to kill people as they keep easily evading him.
- The special abilities of each class is making the game really hard for the hale.

All of what you said is being worked on in the next version, if you read the posts above yours.

- There are sooo many hallways, it can take forever to find the hale.

This is interesting that you feel that way as there isn't that many hallways as you may think in the map given it's size and length of the hallways you speak of, can you elaborate on that a bit more please?

 

[Fragancia]

I've made the changes to the map and they're available to view here, let me know what you think of them.
https://www.skial.com/threads/map-update-thread-for-vsh_project_powerup.72949/#post-727057

 

[Bottiger]

The suggestion thread was left there for a week before I considered adding it. I asked if anyone else had taken a look at it and no one had any input on the matter. I couldn't really tell how the map would do just by looking at it so I just decided to add it. I don't think it was added too quickly, no one seemed to be interested in testing it themselves.

 

[Meowcenary]

The suggestion thread was left there for a week before I considered adding it. I asked if anyone else had taken a look at it and no one had any input on the matter. I couldn't really tell how the map would do just by looking at it so I just decided to add it. I don't think it was added too quickly, no one seemed to be interested in testing it themselves.

No ones blaming you for adding it in. Adding maps into rotation and seeing how well they play first hand with lots of players is the only real way to truly see if a VSH map is any good in my opinion. There's a lot of factors that only become apparent when the map is being played on a full server

 

[Fragancia]

The suggestion thread was left there for a week before I considered adding it. I asked if anyone else had taken a look at it and no one had any input on the matter. I couldn't really tell how the map would do just by looking at it so I just decided to add it. I don't think it was added too quickly, no one seemed to be interested in testing it themselves.

So since this suggestion was approved, does this mean the map will stay out from the servers forever? Aw man that can't be, I've invested a lot of my own time, blood, sweat and occasionally tears into this project, constantly trying to improve it for this community, if it's really gone forever, it would be truly a shame and all the effort I put in to it would go to waste since it was a map made for this community. sigh, mapping really is a thankless job...
I still feel it was wrong to remove it since I've already updated the map to address the issues about the map in response to the feedback given to me which you can see here https://www.skial.com/threads/map-update-thread-for-vsh_project_powerup.72949/#post-727057

I urge you to please reconsider but if your mind is set on keeping it away then there's not much I can do about it.
I'm sorry for all the troubles I couldn't foresee with project_powerup_a17 may have caused.

 

[Pedro the fabulous]

So since this suggestion was approved, does this mean the map will stay out from the servers forever? Aw man that can't be, I've invested a lot of my own time, blood, sweat and occasionally tears into this project, constantly trying to improve it for this community, if it's really gone forever, it would be truly a shame and all the effort I put in to it would go to waste since it was a map made for this community. sigh, mapping really is a thankless job...
I still feel it was wrong to remove it since I've already updated the map to address the issues about the map in response to the feedback given to me which you can see here https://www.skial.com/threads/map-update-thread-for-vsh_project_powerup.72949/#post-727057

I urge you to please reconsider but if your mind is set on keeping it away then there's not much I can do about it.
I'm sorry for all the troubles I couldn't foresee with project_powerup_a17 may have caused.

It's not necesarily gone forever. I think the biggest problems are changes to the classes' balance and the custom content when doing some taunts or voicelines. My guess is that the majority of the playerbase don't want to learn changes to classes that only affect one map, and the custom sounds can highly annoy players who don't want the map messing with their sounds.

Could also simply be the layout. I specially heard the platforms that make you fly forward in two random directions and the control point being hidden & fast to capture are very annoying.

 

[Fragancia]

I think the biggest problems are changes to the classes' balance and the custom content when doing some taunts or voicelines. My guess is that the majority of the playerbase don't want to learn changes to classes that only affect one map, and the custom sounds can highly annoy players who don't want the map messing with their sounds.

I disagree with this, the response on the servers was positive especially for the custom taunt music and voice lines as I saw and heard from people who really liked it, I spent some time looking in the servers running the map while it was still in rotation and kept finding people who were eagerly using their own taunts or the !taunt command to see what custom music they would hear next, if they didn't like it why would they even bother taunting throughout an entire round just to listen to the custom music? There's even people on the map update thread dedicated for project_powerup who loved it but noticed it had flaws.
I haven't seen anyone on the forums complain about these parts of the map how they negatively impact one's gameplay so I don't know why you guessed or think so.

The powerups were made to bring out some power to the neglected sub-classes and weapons that exist but haven't been seriously touched on by the plugin developers and are likely not going to, since they seem more focused on keeping the gamemode stable and working than balancing the classes and weapons.

I believe that your guess about the majority not wanting to learn changes is wrong, in the time I spent watching people get adjusted to the changes, there weren't any complaints that I saw about that instead the complaints were directed at how very powerful the changes were. The powerups have been nerfed accordingly to feedback in the next version and will continue to be if deemed needed as more feedback is given.

Could also simply be the layout. I specially heard the platforms that make you fly forward in two random directions and the control point being hidden & fast to capture are very annoying.

The fast capture rate has been rectified in project_powerp_a18 and also what do you mean the control points are hidden? There's the HUD, decals and models plastered all over the map telling you the necessary information, let me show it to you.

Spoiler: Points are not hidden

I don't see how the control points are "hidden", please explain.

Clearing up one thing about jump pads, they do not launch you in a random direction, they will always launch you to the diagonally opposite jump pad but when going into the pad from the back of it you get launched higher because of the slope but ultimately you land in a predictable spot everytime, the random factor here is the players themselves, they can strafe in the air as the entity doing the launching does not restrict air movement.

Using strafing they can surf on geometry in the map that allows it, surfing takes a bit of skill to pull off.
I have two videos showing how the jump pads in-game and a look how the jump pads function in the level editor which are shown below.
Thanks to @Khed for the video with the jump pads in-game

Spoiler: Jump pads do not launch you in a random direction

Spoiler: A look in the level editor

 

[Pedro the fabulous]

-snip-

I haven't been around tf2 for a few days so I wasn't able to try the map on the server myself. Good to hear people liked it, I wasn't sure if they would.

When I meant the point was hidden, I meant it wasn't instantly accessible and if someone started capturing you couldn't do much about it, but the more time to capture should rectify that. Those two complaints are the ones I heard from some people.

If you think the map should be readded because the regulars liked it a lot, you could make a suggestion to bring it back and get them to post there with their support. If there's a lot of support, it's very likely to be added back. Don't bother if you're not 100% sure there's a lot of support from regulars though.

 

[Fragancia]

I haven't been around tf2 for a few days so I wasn't able to try the map on the server myself. Good to hear people liked it, I wasn't sure if they would.

When I meant the point was hidden, I meant it wasn't instantly accessible and if someone started capturing you couldn't do much about it, but the more time to capture should rectify that. Those two complaints are the ones I heard from some people.

With the added time to capture a point in project_powerup_a18, this shouldn't be much a problem anymore, the boss can react to cappers with ample time to spare and vice versa.

If you think the map should be readded because the regulars liked it a lot, you could make a suggestion to bring it back and get them to post there with their support. If there's a lot of support, it's very likely to be added back. Don't bother if you're not 100% sure there's a lot of support from regulars though.

I'm considering doing that depending on Bottiger's response to my reply to his post here, if he doesn't respond I might as well go ahead and do it, I can predict what the forum regulars may think based on their first impression with project_powerup_a17, but I have faith that with project_powerup_a18, they might change their minds, I certainly hope so. There's too much work and effort put into this map at stake for me to give up on this map and I'll try whatever I can to give it another shot on the servers.