vsh is ruined

[james bond]

Compared to how the server was before Saxton Chaos was installed, it's almost entirely barren. While before, it regularly dipped between "empty" and "full" over the course of the day, there hasn't been a meaningful population present in the server for at least several days after the change took effect.

Even giving the benefit of the doubt that players just aren't used to the gamemode, it's been out for several months on the EU server, and has had consistently less people on it than the regular US Saxton Hale. In my opinion, keeping the regular gamemode of VSH would be better for the server.

 

[Bottiger]

The EU server normally had 0 population so it isn't fair to assume that the server died just because it switched to Saxton Chaos. This is the population graph. It only started dropping once official was fixed and it dropped down to pre-summer levels.

Saxton Chaos NY is having a hard time filling because of an IP change, summer vacation ending, and the regulars going on the server and continually spamming people about how bad it is and that they should all quit, as though that will convince me to change it back.

It really comes down to 2 choices and the choice was easy to make

• Keep it on "vanilla" VSH, when the server is already clearly dying and is already empty entire days. It is easy to see it will die off completely in a matter of weeks.
• Gamble on a remake with the chance to survive because it is vastly different and better than official.

I picked the gamble, because community VSH is clearly doomed. It is a waste of time to try and prolong it's death. There is absolutely no point in keeping a server around that only fills 1-2 hours a day if it even fills at all.

 

[james bond]

I suppose it's worth the chance to see if an alternative to the (now official) base VSH gamemode is feasible.

 

[Supahstar Warria]

When you join the forums just cause you wanted to talk about the VSH changes.
I'd have considered myself a semi regular on the server before the changes, and yeah I can't say I'm a fan of them either (maybe I'll give it another chance the next time more than 5 people are in the server), which is a shame since Skial vsh was my go to for years.
While it has only been a week since it was implemented on the US server it's undeniable it hasn't been doing well, even failing to get more than 10 players for a short period on Saturday. And yeah it's undeniable that community VSH has been struggling across the board since Vscript was added to Casual (monkey's paw moment there since I vastly prefer the plugin maps). Though I can't say I understand the mindset of standing by a controversial change that makes the regulars quit a supposedly already struggling server seeing as this is looking to be the straw that broke the camel's back. If the mode is as doomed as you say I'd definitely prefer the slow death over an immediate one. Skial VSH could have been a decent holdout for quite a while still. The timing of Saxton Chaos being implemented was definitely not a good one that was honestly a bit unfair to the mode. Being implemented right as summer vacation ended alongside driving regulars away was a horrible combination, nor are we able to get decent data on how it would have compared to normal vsh in terms of player counts compared to of it were implemented either earlier or later.
Though I'll concede that it's still early and there's still time for Saxton Chaos to bring in new players and I'm willing to wait a bit to see how it goes, but if it ends up being the flop it's appearing to be I'd hope that a revert is at least attempted before scrapping the server entirely. Or maybe just adding the classic bosses to the FF2 server as some compensation.

 

[herp 105.4]

Or maybe just adding the classic bosses to the FF2 server as some compensation.

nah we good

 

[Bottiger]

Though I can't say I understand the mindset of standing by a controversial change that makes the regulars quit a supposedly already struggling server seeing as this is looking to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. The regulars already quit before I made this change.

Let me ask you, where were all the "regulars" the day before I removed "vanilla" VSH?



Yes Saxton Chaos is not filling up right now and it doesn't look good. But I'd rather have a 1% chance of it succeeding, than a 100% chance to drag out a dead game mode for the next 1-2 months. A server that only fills 1-2 hours a day is essentially dead and below Skial standards for keeping around.

 

[Geiger]

I don't know how many times I have to say this. The regulars already quit before I made this change.

Let me ask you, where were all the "regulars" the day before I removed "vanilla" VSH?



Yes Saxton Chaos is not filling up right now and it doesn't look good. But I'd rather have a 1% chance of it succeeding, than a 100% chance to drag out a dead game mode for the next 1-2 months. A server that only fills 1-2 hours a day is essentially dead and below Skial standards for keeping around.

tl;dr I was a regular on that server and I didn't quit, I just took a break, the server I liked may be fundamentally gone but I'll stick around hoping it'll come back. I can't do anything, but you can Bottiger, please be a bit merciful to us and just understand our side a bit, please.

I really liked that server. Since I first played tf2 5 years ago I found that server and immediately loved it, it played great and a majority of my 2k hours were in that server, spent all day playing it, I had moments where I played when it was constantly empty years ago to bring in players because I liked it so much. All the people that joined where generally fun to play with and the shenanigans and interactions that took place really brought a lot of charm to it. While it's true I always hear how you make poor decisions in updates and VSH now plays terribly, I admit I took part of it a little as a gag to say it has charm because aside from minor understandable things I didn't notice, and the ones I did I just go "it is what it is, let's see what I can do", I'm always happy to boot up tf2 and see my favorite server full, and irritated cause I couldn't join because it was a full server.

While I did see the server go empty frequently recently (that being, like, early this year ago), most citing you as the problem, I asked and an answer I got was just... life. Everyone had lives and just did other things. It's even evident in those graphs where people start joining late at night, then log off to go to sleep most likely. I could've joined occasionally but didn't because I had stuff to do. Heck, I even got a Skial account just to say this cause I like it so much.

As where I, a regular, was when it was removed (;-;): I didn't know, not because I quit but because I was playing other games and general life happened and when I did come back, I basically chanted "I broke free and I returned" and played a while then went back to other games or something else for a few weeks or months but still wanting to go back when I have the time.
Finally came back to tf2 about 2 days ago and saw it was no longer called VSH, scared me a little, but once I saw it was the same one IP-wise it was fine, didn't joined because it was empty, waited a while at the usual times people would join but no, nothing. I asked around only to hear most abandoned it. I'll say it, I was heartbroken, little sappy and crybaby like, but I was. It was my favorite server.

My experience "playing" Saxon Chaos: Hoping people would come back I did my old thing I stuck around and see what changed because I always see some minor change when I came back. The server is so fundamentally different now from what I'm used to that it didn't feel like VSH and I know it's not anymore and I think that's a part of the problem. Items that I knew the server stats like the back of my hand didn't correlate to what I'm seeing, effects that weren't there before, there now. No wiggle room for stuff that allowed funny stuff to happen there anymore. It's... just not the same game I used to play. I tried the FF2 server but, it's not the same.

Look Bottiger, I know I can't speak for anyone else, don't really understand what happened here (I always played for the game, not for skial), and the numbers (shaky circumstances behind it) say this is for the best, but I say otherwise. This server always brought in people and yeah, our trash talking might scare away new players and we are ungodly difficult to please and whine all the time when there's a new change (sometimes rightfully so) but we played regardless, I played regardless, aside jump academy, MvM, and dodgeball this is the main server I play tf2 on since the other FF2 server I played on died.
I still think the server can go back to what it was player count-wise but this way, in my view, this is not it. The only thing I can see it doing is doing away with the at least 50 people that once played on VSH central US (91.216.250.51:27015) and all the friends, connection, and good times with the garbage we had. Well at least my "friends" (never made any there really but it was nice to see familiar players) connections and good times.
-Thank you for reading Bottiger.
P.S. please anyone be merciful to me with any responses, I got this Skial account on a whim just to say this.

 

[EmmBee]

You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I've been mulling over exactly how to word what I wanted to say about this server, but was afraid of coming off as too sappy, but yeah I have to admit this has had me more sad than I expected. Heartbroken is a good way of putting it. I'm not sure if I fall under what constitutes a regular, but I looked the other day and noticed my first join date was 14 years ago. Didn't think it was quite that long ago.

I think often I'd end up binge playing the game for a few months and take a break for the same time span. I recently stopped playing between April and July, so I definitely fall into that group of people seemingly abandoning the server. I agree though that I think what it comes down to for most regulars is just life, I mean for me personally I was starting a new job in that last break. I feel like this was often the sentiment I'd hear from recognized players returning after a long absences.

I do hope there's a future where the old game mode can return and continue to coexist alongside official Saxton Hale. I feel like there are plenty of people willing to continue playing that if not just for the feeling of community when playing on the Skial server.
edit: and I guess worth mentioning, I'm still having the official game mode crash.

 

[LizzieSteph]

My experience "playing" Saxon Chaos: Hoping people would come back I did my old thing I stuck around and see what changed because I always see some minor change when I came back. The server is so fundamentally different now from what I'm used to that it didn't feel like VSH and I know it's not anymore and I think that's a part of the problem. Items that I knew the server stats like the back of my hand didn't correlate to what I'm seeing, effects that weren't there before, there now. No wiggle room for stuff that allowed funny stuff to happen there anymore. It's... just not the same game I used to play. I tried the FF2 server but, it's not the same.

In retrospect I'm not so sure Saxton Chaos was such an amazing idea. Now If casual vsh never happened I do think it would be doing much better than it is now and it would've had a much better chance at being tested and worked on. (Even testing Saxton Chaos was a pain because the servers were hard to fill) But again with casual vsh there really is little reason for normal players to seek out community hosted servers for the gamemode.

An Idea I've had floating around in my head for a while ever since the server changes was if we just reverted it back to "pre-saxton chaos" and just let the server run its course but that wouldn't be to easy to do and I doubt it will fill anyway. And as I have said before in this thread its not just us. Pretty much every other community hosted vsh server has lost a large amount of players. Its a huge shame too, VSH was how I got my start on the Skial servers and what seriously got me into tf2. I do mainly play Zombie Escape now but I was active on the vsh servers too just before these changes happened.

Like the other active regulars I have moved to the FF2 server. I do actually enjoy Saxton Chaos but the server never fills no matter how long I or others bother to sit around on it.

Either way it was nice while it lasted and I'm happy I got to enjoy it as much as I did!

 

[Geiger]

In retrospect I'm not so sure Saxton Chaos was such an amazing idea. Now If casual vsh never happened I do think it would be doing much better than it is now and it would've had a much better chance at being tested and worked on. (Even testing Saxton Chaos was a pain because the servers were hard to fill) But again with casual vsh there really is little reason for normal players to seek out community hosted servers for the gamemode.

An Idea I've had floating around in my head for a while ever since the server changes was if we just reverted it back to "pre-saxton chaos" and just let the server run its course but that wouldn't be to easy to do and I doubt it will fill anyway. And as I have said before in this thread its not just us. Pretty much every other community hosted vsh server has lost a large amount of players. Its a huge shame too, VSH was how I got my start on the Skial servers and what seriously got me into tf2. I do mainly play Zombie Escape now but I was active on the vsh servers too just before these changes happened.

Like the other active regulars I have moved to the FF2 server. I do actually enjoy Saxton Chaos but the server never fills no matter how long I or others bother to sit around on it.

Either way it was nice while it lasted and I'm happy I got to enjoy it as much as I did!

If I slugged through it as I usually did before I probably could enjoy it (really big if), I think the problem with me is that the game I played for years is basically not there anymore and its so different now at an uneasy place to the point where if it left my favorites list, skial stats was inaccessible, and never wrote down the IP when I came back, I'd probably wouldn't find it again or never think it was the one I played on.

But yeah, as my brother can attest, I had a fantastic time playing while it lasted, I'll always have those goofy times with me. Vaguely knowing how things tend to go on skial, I think I'll put the server in my back pocket while I give FF2 another go and look for others servers.

 

[Bottiger]

While I did see the server go empty frequently recently (that being, like, early this year ago), most citing you as the problem, I asked and an answer I got was just... life. Everyone had lives and just did other things. It's even evident in those graphs where people start joining late at night, then log off to go to sleep most likely. I could've joined occasionally but didn't because I had stuff to do.

The server is so fundamentally different now from what I'm used to that it didn't feel like VSH and I know it's not anymore and I think that's a part of the problem.

That was a rhetorical question. I already know know the answer I just wanted you to realize for yourself.

• Why is "life" a valid excuse? There are people growing up in all our other servers yet only in VSH is it an issue?
• You aren't a regular anymore and therefore don't really have a say, if you stopped playing for several months. There's really no valid excuse short of being sent off to the middle east. And I highly doubt all our regulars are in the military.
• If you chose to stop playing for several months it is because you don't care about it anymore. Blaming "life" is a copout. I guarantee you that anyone saying "life" is not working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for several months. Nobody is going that long without any off time whatsoever.
• If I was the problem then why was our server one of the last ones alive? I did not even change anything on the server for over a year when the server started dying in Feb. The only changes being made to the server came from weapon balancers that were 2 regs from the server.
  
  If they were talking about the major changes I made in May, again, they were too stupid to realize that I made the changes AFTER the server started dying, and it wasn't dying because I made the changes. We have some really stupid VSH regs that think I don't have proof of this.
  
  

The answer to this question should be obvious. The game mode was fundamentally flawed and was losing players for years.

Saxton Chaos is the only way forward. It is a game mode that fixes all the problems and avoids competing with official mode that is the other main issue.

It doesn't make any sense to me to keep the server as it is when it gets 5 players tops per day. You are asking me to keep a dead and doomed game mode around because of "life" and because you were a regular that quit for several months???

 

[Geiger]

That was a rhetorical question. I already know know the answer I just wanted you to realize for yourself.

• Why is "life" a valid excuse? There are people growing up in all our other servers yet only in VSH is it an issue?
• You aren't a regular anymore and therefore don't really have a say, if you stopped playing for several months. There's really no valid excuse short of being sent off to the middle east. And I highly doubt all our regulars are in the military.
• If you chose to stop playing for several months it is because you don't care about it anymore. Blaming "life" is a copout. I guarantee you that anyone saying "life" is not working 16 hour days, 7 days a week. Nobody is going that long without any off time whatsoever.
• If I was the problem then why was our server one of the last ones alive? I did not even change anything on the server for over a year when the server started dying in Feb. The only changes being made to the server came from weapon balancers that were 2 regs from the server.

The answer to this question should be obvious. The game mode was fundamentally flawed and was losing players for years.

Saxton Chaos is the only way forward. It is a game mode that fixes all the problems and avoids competing with official mode that is the other main issue.

It doesn't make any sense to me to keep the server as it is when it gets 5 players tops per day. You are asking me to keep a dead and doomed game mode around because of "life" and because you were a regular that quit for several months???

In a 15-year-old game with an ever-revolving door of players old and new alike, figured a common thing to say here is "TF2 players don't quit, we just take long breaks", I can't speak for everyone's experience but some of us aren't terminally online, people go off and do other stuff plus i'm half sure everyone also gets bored, drop games, then get right back to it months later not because we hate it, it just happens, you don't own us or what we do with our time. I myself was going into college after graduating and dedicated most of my time to it, not because I didn't care about the server, it's because it didn't want to get screwed over by bad grades in algebra and financial aid issues. Coupled with the fact I took up war thunder (the gaming nicotine that is). When I came back to TF2 after getting enough time from college I wanted to play VSH vanilla only this time there was no VSH vanilla.

And that jab about me not being a regular anymore, fair but, it may have been a few months or years ago but I joined every day from dawn to dusk during a summer and my stats saying 1087 hours played over 5 years (yeah not counting the 43 hours afk, an accident but I still stayed) may mean nothing to you, but it was 1087 hours of my time I put in out of the 2700 hours in TF2. That meant something to me, I consider myself a regular for that, cause when I had a lot of time on my hands, I joined regularly, and when I didn't have time, I'd wish I did.

I want to try that new mode out, I sort of do, but for the first time in the 5 years I've played I'm starting to see what the other players were talking about, it became less enjoyment playing and more keeping an eye on the forums. Most just reacted on the day of changes, I slugged through all of it and now I'm forced to react to this because we can't do any changes. For me, if I enjoy another skial server, this whole debacle taught me to keep an eye on the forums at all times, or just have a long list of other favorites. Regs and other players, you were right. Hate I had experience something like this situation for the first time.

 

[Bottiger]

Coupled with the fact I took up war thunder (the gaming nicotine that is)

And there we have it. Almost any time someone says they were too busy with "life" the truth is that they got bored of the game and switched to another one. There is no way everyone is living like a monk and just working 100% of the time.

You need to admit to yourself why you quit and the reason is that the game mode wasn't good enough to keep your attention and it wasn't just you, and it wasn't just our server.

Returning it back to what it was isn't going to fix anything but appease your nostalgia for a month before you get bored of it again. Saxton Chaos is the only way forward, and if it fails it fails. There's no point in changing back to a doomed game mode that will limp along for the next few months.

When I setup servers I plan for them to last for years, if it only lasts for a few months, what's the point?

 

[Geiger]

You need to admit to yourself why you quit and the reason is that the game mode wasn't good enough to keep your attention and it wasn't just you, and it wasn't just our server.

Again, I loved the server I played on it all time when I wanted to Bottiger, but I also do other stuff to. I just blink and suddenly its been week since I last played. My opinion, the mode was good. I say again, The. Mode. Was. Good, I had times where I was laughing to tears it was great and wanted to stick around. If wasn't and IF I ultimately hated the server, I wouldn't have made this account, gone out of my way to argue with a skial admin named Bottiger. I wouldn't have frantically talked to regulars I could so I could find and ask what happened, I wouldn't have gone to the FF2 NY server and have my first comment be... !discord, but "Apperanlty my favorite server basically imploded and fled here ;-; :D". It had my attention when I wasn't playing for months until a few days ago when I found out it's not there anymore. It kept my attention enough for 5 years up to now for me to react like this, and you know what, it still does.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't quit VSH, I didn't quit TF2, I am not terminally online, I just left for other stuff and came back, you don't own me, my time or, dictate how I use my time, and when I did use it in that server, again 1087 hours out of my 2700 hours. and don't cherry pick a few line thinking it says otherwise, when I booted up TF2 a few days ago, I came back to play VSH vanilla and set aside hours to play as I always have thinking it was still there. If I had "quit" I wouldn't have done that and gone through this whole nonsense.

 

[Maddo]

Again, I loved the server I played on it all time when I wanted to Bottiger, but I also do other stuff to. I just blink and suddenly its been week since I last played. My opinion, the mode was good. I say again, The. Mode. Was. Good, I had times where I was laughing to tears it was great and wanted to stick around. If wasn't and IF I ultimately hated the server, I wouldn't have made this account, gone out of my way to argue with a skial admin named Bottiger. I wouldn't have frantically talked to regulars I could so I could find and ask what happened, I wouldn't have gone to the FF2 NY server and have my first comment be... !discord, but "Apperanlty my favorite server basically imploded and fled here ;-; :D". It had my attention when I wasn't playing for months until a few days ago when I found out it's not there anymore. It kept my attention enough for 5 years up to now for me to react like this, and you know what, it still does.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't quit VSH, I didn't quit TF2, I am not terminally online, and you don't own me or dictate how I use my time, and when I did use it in that server, again 1087 hours out of my 2700 hours. and don't cherry pick a few line saying otherwise, when I booted up TF2 a few days ago, I came back to play VSH vanilla and set aside hours to play as I always have thinking it was still there. If I had "quit" I wouldn't have done that and gone through this whole nonsense.

The world turns and moves along, you just need to accept that. Look back on the good times you had with a smile, don't be bitter.

 

[Geiger]

The world turns and moves along, you just need to accept that. Look back on the good times you had with a smile, don't be bitter.

I know man, I try, but this is the first time I experience something like this and I'm taking it really hard for some reason. hate that I have look back through memories instead of living through it this time.

 

[Bottiger]

Again, I loved the server I played on it all time when I wanted to Bottiger, but I also do other stuff to. I just blink and suddenly its been week since I last played. My opinion, the mode was good. I say again, The. Mode. Was. Good

If you didn't want to play on the server for 3 months while you were on war thunder or "life" then you didn't care enough about the server. I'm not saying you can't do that, I'm just saying that you are no longer a regular or have a say in what we do with the server at that point.

We can't maintain a server that caters to people who only pop in once a week or month.

 

[Supahstar Warria]

I don't know how many times I have to say this. The regulars already quit before I made this change.

Let me ask you, where were all the "regulars" the day before I removed "vanilla" VSH?

I suppose it would be more accurate to say it guaranteed they wouldn't be coming back I guess. In that respect it would still be accurate to say that Saxton Chaos drove away the pre existing audience.

I guess all we have to look forward to in terms of shakeups is Vscript being banished to Alternative Game Modes (half joke).

 

[Bottiger]

It's no surprise that people like you just want the old game mode. Out of the hundreds of thousands of VSH players we've had the past decade, you are the ones that are left. Anyone else that didn't like it, quit long ago.

It is probably too late to fix the issues now that the vast majority of potential players has moved on. But I still think it is worth a gamble because there is 0 chance that vanilla VSH would have lasted much longer.

If you're hoping that Saxton Chaos does so horribly that I will change it back, you will be disappointed. Saxton Chaos is the only possible way that a VSH flavored game mode will continue to exist on community servers.

 

[Staked le Steph]

The stats don't lie.

https://stats.skial.com/#server/30



It's just funny when "regs" make blatantly false statements that can be proven by cold hard facts and act like I can't possibly call their bluff just because they've never seen me on the server. Hint: when I'm on the server I'm never going to be named Bottiger. You will never know when I'm on the server.

Official VSH killed the server, along with regs that don't understand that the vast majority of players don't like what our game mode had become. Years of weapon buffs for red added by regs killed the game mode.

Don't try and invent facts to fit your narrative.

Brother nobody plays US vsh in the morning