Trade Feedback

[(cYs) Del Piero]

After some debating Bottiger decided it is best to reform the trade feedback system. Therefore everyone's rep will get checked by Cinic and myself. We will delete all feedback which match this description:

• The feeback has no relevance to a trade

In the future feedback must mention how you traded for the items(Steam, Cash with Middlemn, Cash without Middleman)
If you are the buyer and buy some item(s) from a thread then select it.

Update: The feedback of around 2//3 of all people has been checked so far
All feedback have been checked and all future feedback will be checked. If a feedback does not fit the requirements it will get deleted without further warning


Examples of feedback that got deleted.
Quick and Easy
Thanks for the Trade
Great guy
Smooth trade
No scam




Examples of how the feedback should look like. Ordered from least risky to riskest.
Steam Trade
Skial Middleman
PayPal with Middleman
PayPal without Middleman


That's all we need to know. Since it shows the risk one takes.

 

[Cylosis]

Fair enough. I think there should be limits on how many positive reps you can give out in a day, as well, or at least limit them to trades greater than 1ref.

 

[(cYs) Del Piero]

Updated

 

[(cYs) Del Piero]

Examples of how the feedback should look like. Ordered from least risky to riskest.
Steam Trade
Skial Middleman
PayPal with Middleman
PayPal without Middleman


That's all we need to know. Since it shows the risk one takes.

 

[(cYs) Del Piero]

Update: The feedback of around 2//3 of all people has been checked so far.
All other feedback will be updated in the next days.

 

[(cYs) Del Piero]

All feedback have been checked and all future feedback will be checked. If a feedback does not fit the requirements it will get deleted without further warning

 

[Xel'Naga]

Last time I tell you
http://www.skial.com/threads/trade-feedback.6399/

Your latest feedback did not meant our requirements and has been deleted. Wrong feedback may result in an official warning.

This was the only time you've told me. While I appreciate you notifying me of the changes to the feedback protocol, I'm not quite sure how I feel about the tone taken in this notice. I'm not sure if the harsh tone in your message was intentional (I'm assuming that, as a resident of Italy, English is probably not your native tongue, so it may have just been an unintentionally poor choice of words), but it came off as if you've had to deal with me multiple times on the issue or something.

That said, while I think the changes to the feedback protocol are needed, I think that a more practical approach is in order. While we have radio buttons for "Buyer" and "Seller" in the feedback form, perhaps we could add an additional option to select in the feedback form which is to select the type of trade. As character space in feedback is limited (too short for an accurate feedback report in case there was any discrepancy in the trade), it would make more sense to have the trade type be a selectable option when leaving feedback.

This way it would allow for a more organized means of data collection, and possibly even sorting options which may prove useful for people doing a rep check on a user.

That's my two cents on it, though.

 

[(cYs) Del Piero]

I told so many people. I just get tired of telling them. And I only tell everyone once so it was the first and last time I notified you about the changes.
Sorry if the tone was not so good.

While we have radio buttons for "Buyer" and "Seller" in the feedback form, perhaps we could add an additional option to select in the feedback form which is to select the type of trade. As character space in feedback is limited (too short for an accurate feedback report in case there was any discrepancy in the trade), it would make more sense to have the trade type be a selectable option when leaving feedback.

I think with the new system we have a more reliable way of telling how much someone is trustworthy for a cash trade. 40 rep via Steam mean nothing when it comes to cash trades. I like your idea and I hope Bottiger can realize it.

 

[Xel'Naga]

Question: You deleted over half of my feedbacks. You only deleted ~30 of your own feedbacks. Many of your own feedbacks still do not meet these requirements and should - according to your own post - be deleted. Why haven't they been deleted when most of mine (and other users') have?

I know you're very involved in the trading community, and I won't deny that you legitimately have more feedback than anybody else on Skial. That's not even up for debate.

However it just seems odd that shortly after you're made a trade moderator that you would remove 50+% of some users' feedbacks, while leaving a ton of them on your own account that should also be removed. This puts a pretty significant gap between you and "second place", and seems quite intentional.

This sort of arbitrary removal of of feedback makes it very difficult for me to consider Skial as a credible reputation checking service. When the moderators are obviously playing favorites with their own selves, it really tarnishes a site's reputation.

Especially considering that all of the past feedback I've received was legitimate and entered prior to the addition of new rules, it's even harder for me to continue using Skial.

Just skimming through your own feedback page, Del Piero, I see dozens of feedback reports that do not meet your requirements. I'd like to know why these aren't deleted, since you said:

All feedback have been checked

If the mods are playing favorites, then why do we even have a feedback system in the first place?

 

[Kevorkian]

wow, granted all my trades have been steam trades but they include 2 unusuals, several genuine items, and many stranges, but because they weren't specifically mentioned... goodbye! very disappointing that I go from 10+ to 1. Granted I haven't been here very long but since you've gutted any positive rep I've had as a trader don't really know how much longer I will stay.

I guarentee that some of the reps you deleted at least matched the following in tone and information.

Diakia

sold him some stuff - fast trade +1
Diakia

Wide variety and reasonable price +1
Evil-Inferno

Bought weapons
PsychoRealm

Great trader. Pleasure to have business with.
JALsnipe

Great trade, fast transaction. A+
Irony

Bought weapons

Those are just in page 1 and 2 of your feedback.

yet they got axed from my feedback but not yours? I agree with Xel that there is no question you are one of the most active traders on skial and deservedly have a large rep but I'm actually quite displeased by this change and feel that deleting over 90% of my feedback was at a minimum disingenuous.

 

[Bottiger]

wow, granted all my trades have been steam trades but they include 2 unusuals, several genuine items, and many stranges, but because they weren't specifically mentioned... goodbye! very disappointing that I go from 10+ to 1. Granted I haven't been here very long but since you've gutted any positive rep I've had as a trader don't really know how much longer I will stay.

I'm sorry to hear you leave, but what is the point of trade reputation if they were risk-free Steam trades?

It's not like anyone is going to consider you more trustworthy if you start doing Paypal trades, or someone is less likely to do a Steam trade with you.

 

[Doki]

hmm I wonder why del piero still has almost double the rep of anyone else.

Oh yeah, it's because he forgot to police his own feedback, how convenient.

 

[Xel'Naga]

I'm sorry to hear you leave, but what is the point of trade reputation if they were risk-free Steam trades?

For low-value items like buying a stack of weapons or something, it still shows an investment that a particular user has put into the trading community. If somebody has a hundred reported trades, all positive, that were all small things like weapons, it shows that that person is a good trader, outlines that trader's demeanor, or whatever other notes another trader wants to leave on that person's profile.

Even if they're just Steam trades, they could be trades of buds, unusuals, Steam games, or other valuable TF2 items.

 

[Kevorkian]

I'm sorry to hear you leave, but what is the point of trade reputation if they were risk-free Steam trades?

It's not like anyone is going to consider you more trustworthy if you start doing Paypal trades, or someone is less likely to do a Steam trade with you.

so a pattern of positive transactions has no bearing? then have your trade admin delete all of his steam trades, better yet delete all steam trades from feedback and don't even represent the category at all in your feedback system.

the 15 or so people I've traded with felt I was easy enough to deal with, provided good value, did not scam etc. to leave positive feed back. Now if you were doing a cash transaction with me, you wouldn't at least look to see I had positive rep? I believe you would. and if my feedback had several negs or neutrals that wouldn't give you pause?

Truthfully I don't believe that even judgement was given as rep was deleted and I will go scan other traders to see but because I'm not a been here for months/years regular, my feedback was basically erased.

 

[Kevorkian]

even more troubling, in my opinion, is you have left feedback I have given to people in trades I was involved with, but deleted the feedback they gave to me in response.

 

[Xel'Naga]

I also just noticed that several of my "high risk" feedback reports - where I had the other user go first (like Steam redemption codes) - were deleted. Those are the ones that a person kinda needs on their profile to show that they are, in fact, honest and reputable traders. And to the best of my knowledge, none of those were missing any of the new requirements (they indicated in the feedback report that they went first in a high-risk trade and were completely relevant to the trade in question).

The removal of feedback like this is detrimental to the entire feedback system and damages a user's reputation. I had reports from other people who verified that I can be trusted with high-risk trades. Those are now gone.

I have no idea how XenForo works (admittedly, this is the first and only forum I've seen actually running this software), but if the feedback can't be recovered, then I think the only fair solution is to wipe everybody's feedback. Start everybody back from zero with proper protocol in place, and go from there. Otherwise, I really don't think Del Peiro's actions benefit anybody.

I don't want to seem like I'm trying to make a scene, but I have to be perfectly honest here. Until there is some sort of reasonable solution, I will not be engaging in any trades with Skial. If I can't trust the system in place here, then I simply can't use it. I actually value my reputation as a trader, and won't sully that reputation by making trades in a community where moderators are able to remove perfectly legitimate reputation at will with no rhyme or reason.

 

[Bottiger]

so a pattern of positive transactions has no bearing? then have your trade admin delete all of his steam trades, better yet delete all steam trades from feedback and don't even represent the category at all in your feedback system.

the 15 or so people I've traded with felt I was easy enough to deal with, provided good value, did not scam etc. to leave positive feed back. Now if you were doing a cash transaction with me, you wouldn't at least look to see I had positive rep? I believe you would. and if my feedback had several negs or neutrals that wouldn't give you pause?

Truthfully I don't believe that even judgement was given as rep was deleted and I will go scan other traders to see but because I'm not a been here for months/years regular, my feedback was basically erased.

No I wouldn't consider any Steam trades to be worth any positive reputation at all in a cash trade. There is no risk of running away in a Steam trade so scammers are unable to run from a deal without paying even if they wanted to. If there are negative reputations given for quick-switching or mislabeling an item, that would of course count against you in a cash trade.

There have been people who have done over 30 legitimate cash trades and still scammed by chargebacks or never sending the payment. Someone is even more likely to scam if they've never done a cash trade before. That is simply a fact that every experienced TF2 trader has seen over and over again.

If a cash trader is trying to look through your reputation to see if they should risk selling to you, they are going to ignore the feedback that Piero deleted anyway. We are just saving them more work. Maybe someday when you start selling or buying items for cash, you will understand.

 

[Kevorkian]

No I wouldn't consider any Steam trades to be worth any positive reputation at all in a cash trade. There is no risk of running away in a Steam trade so scammers are unable to run from a deal without paying even if they wanted to. If there are negative reputations given for quick-switching or mislabeling an item, that would of course count against you in a cash trade.

There have been people who have done over 30 legitimate cash trades and still scammed by chargebacks or never sending the payment. Someone is even more likely to scam if they've never done a cash trade before. That is simply a fact that every experienced TF2 trader has seen over and over again.

If a cash trader is trying to look through your reputation to see if they should risk selling to you, they are going to ignore the feedback that Piero deleted anyway. We are just saving them more work. Maybe someday when you start selling or buying items for cash, you will understand.

fine I'll accept that. When are you deleting ALL feedback from steam trades for everyone?

 

[Xel'Naga]

No I wouldn't consider any Steam trades to be worth any positive reputation at all in a cash trade. There is no risk of running away in a Steam trade so scammers are unable to run from a deal without paying even if they wanted to. If there are negative reputations given for quick-switching or mislabeling an item, that would of course count against you in a cash trade.

There have been people who have done over 30 legitimate cash trades and still scammed by chargebacks or never sending the payment. Someone is even more likely to scam if they've never done a cash trade before. That is simply a fact that every experienced TF2 trader has seen over and over again.

If a cash trader is trying to look through your reputation to see if they should risk selling to you, they are going to ignore the feedback that Piero deleted anyway. We are just saving them more work. Maybe someday when you start selling or buying items for cash, you will understand.

Which goes back to my earlier suggestion of adding an additional field/radio button to feedback forms which is to specify the trade type (instead of just adding it as a written note), allowing cash traders the option to filter feedback type for any particular user. This way the kind of feedback that is important to them is visible, and non-important (Steam trade) can be hidden at will.

All the same, it still is a good idea for lower-ranking Steam trades to be feedback'd, for those who want to do low-rank trades. Even somebody selling a Market Gardener might want to make sure that his buyer is legit.

 

[Xel'Naga]

Also worth mentioning:

The new rules apply to NEW FEEDBACK.

I'm going to assume this is 100% incorrect.

 

[Bottiger]

Which goes back to my earlier suggestion of adding an additional field/radio button to feedback forms which is to specify the trade type (instead of just adding it as a written note), allowing cash traders the option to filter feedback type for any particular user. This way the kind of feedback that is important to them is visible, and non-important (Steam trade) can be hidden at will.

All the same, it still is a good idea for lower-ranking Steam trades to be feedback'd, for those who want to do low-rank trades. Even somebody selling a Market Gardener might want to make sure that his buyer is legit.

I don't have the time/expertise to modify the plugin to that degree. Thus the best solution is to make it clear how you bought the item.