The Enforcer
- Thread starter MilleNX
- Start date
I still want Pomson and Tomislav, and I'm sure i'm going to get disagreed with by about 17 heavies, I will be glad to elaborate if someone calls me on why.
Enforcer's nerf is well deserved, I think it's pretty well balanced, my biggest complaint with that fucker was the random crits that one shot all light classes from across the map...and as apparently I am a crit magnet I used to get crit with it all the time. As for it not doing the damage out of disguise, it's better this way - you don't suddenly get shot for 80 (exaggeration before math nerds attack me.) from a spy who was disguised around you.
Enforcer's nerf is well deserved, I think it's pretty well balanced, my biggest complaint with that fucker was the random crits that one shot all light classes from across the map...and as apparently I am a crit magnet I used to get crit with it all the time. As for it not doing the damage out of disguise, it's better this way - you don't suddenly get shot for 80 (exaggeration before math nerds attack me.) from a spy who was disguised around you.
I personally don't think any weapon in the game deserves a nerf. My philosophy: If it isn't overpowered or broken to the point where it centralizes gameplay, it doesn't deserve a nerf. An overpowered weapon or game element renders it the only viable option in all situations (think Meta Knight in Super Smash Bros. Brawl). Team Fortress 2 is devoid of any tactic, weapon, or style of play that is unassailable. Consequently, I do not believe Valve should acquiesce to every irrational and jaundiced player with a grudge against something.
Take the Phlogistinator for example. Was it overpowered? No. Was it easily countered? Yes. A Phlog Pyro may have had 99% damage reduction for a second or two, but he was always more vulnerable than one would think. During the taunt, take a few paces away from the Pyro; shoot stickies at his feet; spam him with rockets while outside of his range. These were all efficient methods of handling him, especially given his loss of compression blast. Did any of this matter however? No--Valve went ahead and published this nonsensical nerf anyway just to appease some whiners. This is a bad business model.
Take the Phlogistinator for example. Was it overpowered? No. Was it easily countered? Yes. A Phlog Pyro may have had 99% damage reduction for a second or two, but he was always more vulnerable than one would think. During the taunt, take a few paces away from the Pyro; shoot stickies at his feet; spam him with rockets while outside of his range. These were all efficient methods of handling him, especially given his loss of compression blast. Did any of this matter however? No--Valve went ahead and published this nonsensical nerf anyway just to appease some whiners. This is a bad business model.
I don't think the Phlog needed a nerf, I think there are a lot more guns that needed attention before that got it...I don't personally use it but again there is a lot more wrong. Since I am bored and nobody is around for me to talk to at the moment, I shall elaborate my thoughts.
Enforcer: as I said above, nerf was 100% merited, it centralized spy gameplay...if you were using dead ringer you were an idiot for not using enforcer and that should NEVER be the case with anything.
Pomson: I really don't think the Engineer needs this much utility moreso than he already has...ontop of being able to drain medics retardedly fast..making spies unable to cloak...it can crit and one shot most classes...it has ridiculous range, and of course like most of the lazer stupidity travels thru opposing team. I think most players in this game agree that Pomson is absolutely ridiculous and needs a tonedown on either it's damage, or utility (I'm fine with one or the other, but certainly not both.)
Tomislav: Here's where most of the disagreements will come from. I feel the Tomislav takes the major heavy downside away and is such a ridiculous crutch weapon it isn't even funny. As I've stated numerous times I don't think Heavy as a whole is a hard class to play, and I personally never touch the class - however I must say why the hell would they make a heavy weapon have a silent, almost instant spinup with negligible downsides? Yes the minigun does more damage, however it's not like the Tomislav does atrocious, even from far away it's considerable - it still has ridiculously high DPS in comparison with most other guns.
Most "update weapons" will add something but create a downside and alter the play a bit - those are interesting updates...I will elaborate on what I mean by this...the direct hit changed soldier from spamming at his feet, to trying to direct hit (SO THATS WHY THEY NAMED IT THAT?!)...and at more advanced levels airshot for the minicrits. The Flaregun as it currently is allows pyro to have some range at the downside of making pyros who shotgun harder to kill. My point is the weapons stated above hardly add any downside other than perhaps some damage loss up close, but don't add anything new and interesting to gameplay. Another interesting update weapon was the ubersaw, which encourages the medic to get up close and person to gain his uber instead of just healing his teammates. Huntsman yet again...these are all solid updates as much as some people hate them - they completely alter the classes playstyle (atleast to a degree.) but they add interesting upsides and downsides...Tomislav, Pomson, Enforcer did not do this.
But I really do enjoy Valve listening to feedback, at the end of the day it is a game - and people should be able to play how they wish to play it, but at the same rate it shouldn't force me to use these weapons because I'm an idiot for not doing what the typical person does. I hope this opens some intelligent agreements/disagreements and makes for an interesting discussion on what people feel needs nerfs/buffs/shouldn't be touched before it turns into stupidity.
Edit:
and to a degree (emphasis on the to a degree part) listening to your customers is NEVER a bad idea, particularly when there is a large outcry for/against something with intelligent arguments.
No one had any intelligent arguments decrying the Phlogistinator. No one.
If Valve implemented a rework--not a nerf--to accentuate the Heavy's offensive abilities while downplaying the Heavy's tanking options, then I'd abide a change. A straight nerf? Not necessary; we'll end up with another worthless weapon, like Natascha.
The Tomislav is only a crutch weapon for bad Heavies. A good Heavy will use the Tomislav to enhance the class's offensive capacity by utilizing its faster rev speed for magnified jump-revving maneuvers. I concur that the silent spin is unnecessary, but the nerf proposed in the current Beta will strip the weapon of all practical use. As it is, it's a good alternative for more offense-oriented Heavies--but as the Skial stats clearly indicate, it's not replacing the stock minigun any time soon.
If Valve implemented a rework--not a nerf--to accentuate the Heavy's offensive abilities while downplaying the Heavy's tanking options, then I'd abide a change. A straight nerf? Not necessary; we'll end up with another worthless weapon, like Natascha.
Lord Killington
Legendary Skial King
This is what I've been thinking all along. Tomislav doesn't need a nerf to the ground, it's stats need to be more clear that it's supposed to be a roaming heavy weapon (that's what I believe was it's original intention, right?). Right now you can roam with any heavy gun (except Brass Beast) as long as you've got a sandvich. I've always wanted a minigun that's more viable with a shotgun - perhaps the Tomislav could be a new Degreaser? I don't know, just speaking from my ass atm.
Nothing, that's what.
Minigun left, tomislav right..
With a windup time 0.35 seconds faster, that on average means the minigun does 70 max damage in the first second from pressing fire (including windup time), the tomislav does 207, after 2 seconds the minigun does a max of 610 the tomislav 639, 3 seconds minigun 1150, tomislav 1071. BUT, because of the slower firing time of the tomislav. this means that the only real advantage of the tomislav is within the first second of firing, and this is the moment when you are training your crosshair on your target, so will loose that advantage because of the slower firing speed of the tomislav.
Any decent heavy though, will not wait until he sees his opponent directly in crosshairs before starting to spin up, so will be ready spun, this leaves the tomislav at a distinct disadvantage in terms of damage.
I agree with the last paragraph, good heavies who know the maps good ambush points and listen to their teammates calls rarely meet opponents without their minigun ready to fire.
I feel like posting a "we've got a badass over here" image macro but I guess I would be unoriginal if I did.
Ozone
Server-Clearing Cynic
I still dont understand the meaning of crutch weapon..
crutch = support aid?? but what does it mean in context?
If you mean it aids bad players - you didnt understand the jist of my explanation, you said "it does more dps in comparison to most guns" so does the minigun..? in fact more.. so does that mean you think the minigun is a crutch weapon?
The main disadvantage of the tomislav is it's spin up time, (yeah i know not what you would think) heavys will use the tomislav at last minute, with the notion that they have additional time once spun up, but facing a minigun heavy outside of a 'test' means they will face an already spun up MG heavy, who will do around ~400 damage to the tomislavs ~300. facing anything other than a heavy is about having a true and steady aim, the only class that faces disadvantage to the tomislav is the scout, but this is balanced by the tomislavs disadvantage on taking out sentrys.
I personaly don't think there is any advantages/disadvantages to the tomislav, it all depends on the playstyle of the wielder, which imo actualy helps for a more balanced and challenging game.
