Approved Proposal to create a new "Hardcore Deathrun" server

[Cream Tea]

It is clear to me that there are two conflicting playerbases now in the "deathrun community" and that is those who want to enjoy classic deathrun and those who wish to play more so-called "parkour" deathrun maps. The deathrun server has already tried some of these maps and they were removed due to being unpopular with the "main" deathrun playerbase however there is still a demand for them by others. So I believe that the best solution would be to have a separate server to cater to them rather than trying to force the main deathrun players to endure them.

What makes a deathrun map a "parkour" map? Well that's where opinions can vary but the general consensus is that any map that requires skillful platforming beyond simple jumping to the point that most players find it difficult. The following list is what I consider to be hardcore, or "parkour", deathrun maps:

• dr_cybertower
• dr_waterrun
• dr_forgotten_origin
• dr_nighttown
• dr_js_arcade
• dr_neonoir
• dr_technoir
• dr_bearrun
• dr_mlg_bearrun
• dr_bearrush
• dr_grizzly
• dr_outrun
• dr_crystal
• dr_pq

There are enough maps that fit the criteria to fill a separate rotation and I think it would be a great idea.

 

[Bottiger]

"some stuff"
(cybertower and PQ relying entirely on custom soundscript entries to do anything)
im pretty sure a single word "Hardcore" is enough to tell people the difference between casual silly DR maps and what we have here. renaming the entire gamemode is too obtuse.

people type "dr_" into the map search box to find servers, they aren't typing "hardcore". Also these parkour style maps shouldn't be considered deathrun imo.

 

[Scrotes]

people type "dr_" into the map search box to find servers, they aren't typing "hardcore". Also these parkour style maps shouldn't be considered deathrun imo.

They have activators that activate traps. Some do a bad job at this (neonoir namely), but PQ and Cybertower absolutely are deathrun maps. They're just extremely hard. Normal deathrun maps also have basic platforming and obstacles on occasion. Harder maps ramp that up to a high degree. The fundamentals are exactly the same. They are deathrun maps.

In the same way that Skial's name is basically a magnet for players, people can read "HARDCORE" in the server title and expect something atypical. People outside the circle of Skial (other DR servers) will potentially never notice this server, solely because of the confusing naming convention.

Last edit:
If you absolutely insist on this name change, at least go the extra mile to make sure the maps function by renaming them with ficool2's BSP renamer. It correctly changes packed content so that soundscript and particle entries work correctly. People aren't going to stick around to play broken maps.

 

[worMatty]

I know it will break some stuff but there really needs to be a separation between these 2 types of maps because they clearly appeal to 2 different types of players. Players and map makers should get used to separating the two.

You could have worked with us ahead of time and the people who made these maps could have provided you with modified versions that work without an activator. Then you could have had a fully-working experience instead of rushing out a broken setup. You could possibly even have had new maps that people like nutwoomy had not released because they were too platforming-centric.

people type "dr_" into the map search box to find servers, they aren't typing "hardcore". Also these parkour style maps shouldn't be considered deathrun imo.

Nor are they likely to be using the par_ prefix to find them.

 

[Scrotes]

(also add simulacrum and simulation pls)

 

[Skull1]

While these maps are platforming based, they are still deathrun, and people search for these maps with dr_ prefix if they want to play on them, bring the dr_ prefix back, I don't think changing map prefixes was necessary.

 

[Bloodpop]

Renaming maps is not a good idea. Maps that rely on level_sounds or particles.txt will break.
You're also forcing people to download duplicates of maps, which is entirely unnecessary.
And, those not in the know how might not even realize these are "hard deathrun maps", and may mistake these for a sole PvE gamemode.
Basically, you'll have the opposite intended effect of less players (because they think this is something else).

That's actually true, renaming them is unnecessary since its just gonna break shit they have.

Only solution is if mappers rename their hard dr map and script files like "par_somethingname_version"

Example: "par_helllands_v1"

 

[Zombina]

is the par_ really worth making me redownload every map

 

[Schtolteheim]

Bottiger would rather:

• Spend hours programming a custom repacker to make a separate version of PQ
• Add more code to handle audio bugs resulting from repacking it
• Rename it (and hotfix it twice because doing so broke sounds and particles)
• Make everybody redownload it
• Do the same for every single map on the rotation (without consulting the mappers or the community at large beforehand)

instead of keeping the dr_ prefix.

Literally everyone disagrees with him on that point (even Cream Tea), but God damn, that's some serious dedication

 

[Scrotes]

Bottiger would rather:

• Spend hours programming a custom repacker to make a separate version of PQ
• Add more code to handle audio bugs resulting from repacking it
• Rename it (and hotfix it twice because doing so broke sounds and particles)
• Make everybody redownload it
• Do the same for every single map on the rotation (without consulting the mappers or the community at large beforehand)

instead of keeping the dr_ prefix.

Literally everyone disagrees with him on that point (even Cream Tea), but God damn, that's some serious dedication

This is just dumb at this point. I had good faith in bottiger for this, but this is seriously some unbelievable negligence and islanding. I'm going to be blunt.

You have an overwhelming majority of players saying this renaming is dumb. Not just the sweats, but even casual people (arctic dino, Jeff/Carno, wormatty) still agree that these are deathrun maps. Even cream tea, basically your advisor, says this is too far.

Deathrun is a gamemode where a group of runners attempt to reach the end of a course filled with hazards. There is an activator who manually triggers traps to kill people, and in between there is often some amount of obstacles. Nearly EVERY deathrun map does this. Playstation has basic platforming and obstacles inbetween all of its traps, and NOBODY disagrees that its a deathrun map.

All the maps on the rotation for the hardcore server fit this bill. They have activator triggered traps, with obstacles mixed in between. It just so happens these obstacles are significantly more difficult and hazardous than on average. Cyber Tower has hard obstacles, but the traps are equally as hard to avoid and try to encourage mind-gaming between runners and activators. PQ is mostly traps with platforming spaced in between. Neonoir, Forgotten Origin, and Water Run don't do as good of a job due to their small number of traps, but this just a map balancing issue. It is no different than any other map being a "bad deathrun map" for some other reason.

These are deathrun maps. The only difference is the difficulty. This is like comparing Easy Campaign to Expert Realism in Left 4 Dead 2. This is easy versus hardmode. It's the same gamemode, with the difficulty changed. People who read "HARDCORE" in the server title will be able to tell that shit is going to be tough. People read the server title. Skial gets players because skial is in the name. If they don't see that, I'm sure they can see "HARDCORE DEATHRUN" or something as the gamemode. Even if they do mistakenly join, there are plenty of ways to ensure they find the regular server (players directing them, MOTD messages, !hop commands). If anything, "PARKOUR" is disingenous because it doesn't specify the difficulty at all. It's vague. In fact, people who search for hard deathrun maps by using dr_ (as they've been titled for literally years with no qualms until you decided it was a problem) will now never find them here.

You then take it a step further by forcing the activator to be a bot, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the maps. Cyber Tower is now impossible to 100% because the boss requires the activator's cooperation. The Versus minigame is now pointless. The activator room selection and music system I spent forever putting together is now useless. The 30+ different traps I have now serve zero purpose. PQ is now a drag because the traps are all gone. PQ's minigames against the activator are now useless. Even the other maps with fewer traps suffer as a result. Forgotten Origin is actually pretty fun with its traps, and now the spinner (which is a lot of people's favorite) is now useless. Nighttown is actually a good deathrun course by itself, simply overshadowed by BOSSBOSSBOSSBOSS spam. Too bad all the minigames against the activator are worth shit now. Good job, you only reinforced the problem the map has even further by making boss the only appealing option.

Despite all this retort, all you can refute with is your regurgitation of "this isn't deathrun, they must be separate", despite your actions to demonstrate as such completely destroying the integrity of some maps, and the overwhelming negative response by practically everybody. Quit embarassing yourself. You have an untapped market of veteran players eager to have a server hosted by the most popular network, frequently having a consistent population, to play their hard maps, and you're basically setting them up to fail miserably.

 

[Schtolteheim]

I can confirm there are people joining the hardcore server, thinking the name "Parkour" and the par_ prefix mean a new gamemode entirely, and immediately leaving upon realizing it's the skill maps from Deathrun. The name change is actively misleading people who think the server is something completely different, to the point they don't even know what the server is for. All this does is make it more difficult for the actual target demographic to find the server and maps they want, while confusing other players who aren't caught up to speed on all this nonsense.

Also there's already a gamemode called Parkour (Fortress) anyway

 

[SIS]

 

[Maximus7]

I don't think this was a good idea in practice, maybe worth trying, but this kind of "deathrun parkour" is not a known gamemode within TF2 and isn't going to have players. There are a lot of regular DR players that like the more challenging maps, some of these maps were some of the most played in the server (such as neonoir, waterrun, etc).

But this server isn't going to attract new players, nobody will know about it since it isn't labeled deathrun. And since there aren't people joining, all of the players that want to play these maps can't play.

Essentially, a lot of great maps are now unofficially removed. So, when this server inevitably gets shutdown like Jailbreak did, are we going to get these maps back in the DR rotation or are they gone for good?

 

[Bottiger]

There are a lot of regular DR players that like the more challenging maps, some of these maps were some of the most played in the server (such as neonoir, waterrun, etc).

I think a bit of self reflection is needed here. If so many people liked these maps, why aren't they joining the other server right now?

The truth is that these people are few in number.

Even if the server or map isn't named deathrun, they already know about this server and could be on it right now, but they aren't.

People that are searching for deathrun, the chances are they want an actual deathrun map and not a map with 2 traps.

Essentially, a lot of great maps are now unofficially removed. So, when this server inevitably gets shutdown like Jailbreak did, are we going to get these maps back in the DR rotation or are they gone for good?

Maybe we'll keep 1 or 2 of them. But most of these maps are unpopular with the general playerbase.

 

[caya1]

Also there's already a gamemode called Parkour (Fortress) anyway

yeah, when I first saw the server name I thought it was related to mecha the slag's parkour fortress gamemode from years ago that imitated mirror's edge.

Maybe we'll keep 1 or 2 of them. But most of these maps are unpopular with the general playerbase.

imo, keep PQ and maybe cybertower and forgotten origin on the regular server, leave the rest on the hardcore server.

But aside from that, I also agree with one point Bottiger makes in regards to some "hardcore deathrun" maps aren't as popular as the loud minority would like to believe. Waterrun, for example, is one map that many players do not like and routinely caused a large drop in player count on the server. Right now, the deathrun server has absolutely no problems retaining a high playercount even on weekdays. This shows you that having more hardcore maps does not really matter to the average player who just want a chill/casual deathrun experience. I am one of those players. I have been playing deathrun for years, and I grew up with the "classic" style of deathrun. The novelty of deathrun maps with more platforming like neonoir is fun for a time, but honestly eventually I get tired of them and would rather stick to chill maps. I often play deathrun while I listen to music, browse the internet or do something else, this isn't a hardcore game type.

By contrast, with the ZE servers, they struggle to retain near max capacity of players for more than 2-3 hours during the weekdays. On weekends, the server can retain near max capacity for longer, but still not to the level of deathrun. This is because, I believe, the ZE servers do not completely cater to EITHER casual play or hardcore play. So when casual maps are played, hardcore players tend to leave because they find it "boring". And then when the 15-20 hardcore players leave, it makes the server less fun for casual players and also the maps generally don't work as well without at least 40 players on the server, so then even more casual players leave too and the server dies.

So basically, I think the people are right in that Bottiger's naming of the server and repacking the maps is unnecessarily complicating the thing and making it impractical both for players to explore, mapmaker to work with, and for a server admin (bottiger) to work with too. I also think to do this server right, you need to do what many surf servers do and give the players the option to have infinite respawn. It would help retain players who want to enjoy platforming without waiting endlessly for other players to finish maps. It would also encourage new players to join hardcore deathrun that offers more platforming and makes it easier for them to jump in and learn without getting bored.

 

[Bottiger]

So basically, I think the people are right in that Bottiger's naming of the server and repacking the maps is unnecessarily complicating the thing and making it impractical both for players to explore, mapmaker to work with, and for a server admin (bottiger) to work with too.

I wanted to rename the maps to fully separate the player base.

When people search for deathrun, they most likely don't want a parkour map. It is more convenient for both sides. If you don't want to play vanilla "corridor" maps, you can just type "par_" in the browser instead of typing "dr_" and then having to select 1 out of 10 servers. It will also force map makers to pick which playerbase they want to appeal to instead of these hybrid abominations we have now.

The people complaining here just haven't put as much thought as I have into this decision.

People don't agree with this because they are now realizing that the "hardcore/parkour" side is tiny and the only way they could get people on these maps is to force the main deathrun playerbase to play on it.

I've changed the name back and the server is still dead.