Declined Payload Engineer Class Limit.

[Inferno Lord]

Intro

As the title says, I wish to suggest a class limit for the engineer on payload servers. I have been playing a lot of payload recently to spice up the pallet and it’s been a very fun experience especially alongside other regulars. It’s a lot more focused a time. With time however you notice the faults of the mode and this is where the main issue with payload is.

The Problem

Engineer slows attack to a crawl on last of most maps and makes it immensely difficult to push through. I like the chaotic 16v16 Payload format honestly but the issue is always last point. You cannot have sixteen players near a spawn with five Engineers having full team coverage, it simply makes it impossible to push through unless Blu is rolling or the team is not capable. It is very difficult for Blu to make the effort to break through the lines especially on maps like Barnblitz and Upward, and Metro where Engineers take up every corner and opening or use vantages which only have one access usually all the way in the back.

This a huge problem with Upward especially when four Engineers are posted up on the walkway with pyros, soldiers, demos, and snipers all using that same single path up to the nest. A Spy cannot breach through these lines and jumping is impossible as the only two entry ways would be the front entry and bottom steps which are both usually covered by sentries. The only rational way to get close to those sentries would be a full frontal assault on the lower spawn and hoping to breach passed or somehow spamming enough from windows to take them out which is usually unlikely due to constant pressure from Red who usually take up the window area to flank or peek from doorway or a Sniper covers windows. That’s just Upward alone, maps like Badwater and Barnblitz share this issue. Now the rebuttal to this point is usually, “This is a Payload problem” which it is for the most part unless we consider Attack/Defend as well which is it’s own argument. Even if you were to destroy the sentries, multiple Engineers can assist other Engineers to quickly rebuild the sentries making the effort null.

Addendum

As much as I would like these maps to accommodate for the max 32 player limit, these maps simply are not built for such team sizes and when Engineers can simply spam out buildings again and again with a decent team constantly backing them it quickly becomes unfun for Blu to make the effort no matter how many bodies that throw. Payload last is a battle of pressure. Blu needs to build enough momentum to exceed Red’s pressure but that’s very difficult to do when Red has full access to supplies and coverage, able to continually pressure Blu. They themselves can build pressure to push back Blu making it harder to break the lines.

Recommendations

Now I know a class limit on Engineer might not be a welcomed addition. Some would prefer it stay open ended and are hard fought on this choice but I do believe that this would be a good addition to Payload. I’ve been playing it a hell of a lot with people and for the most part outside of teams sometimes becoming very one sided due to various scrambles it is a very well paced and fun mode to play. It is just too easy for Red to mount up five to six Engineers and have ten other players covering them as Blu tries to throw its bodies at them. I feel there should be at least a limit of three, maybe two. Any more becomes too much and after multiple games I see that even four can be too much to handle especially with the extra support they have from the diverse class comps. This is a suggestion I am only recommending for Payload 24/7 as I feel servers like Casual should perhaps keeps it open-ended class limits. If such class limit additions might be too much then perhaps it can be made into a vote command.
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Thank you for taking a read of my suggestion. I await the response.

 

[Jermaphobe]

I'd rather not fall on a slippery slope, but if Engineer gets class limits, which class would be next? One of the reasons I play Skial vanilla servers is the lack of class limits. Which you'll find aplenty in other communities.

Almost everything described here is a common pitfall with payload that ultimately falls down to the map and the teams coordinating. The vanilla game doesn't enforce class limits in casual, we shouldn't either. I shouldn't be restricted from playing a class I want to play. Its entirely on the team to coordinate and use the map to their advantage, and as much as I'd like to not burst many payload regulars ideals, our vanilla servers aren't comp servers. they're pubs. I'm all for working as a team and coordinating but its always going to inevitably go awry and you can't become seriously upset by it. Playing pub servers with a comp-mindset is setting yourself up for disappointment. At best its making it easier for less brain-involved gameplay, at worst its driving players away into the servers of other communities that don't have class restrictions. They'll consider this sole class limitation arbitrary and not give any further thought to it.

 

[Inferno Lord]

I'd rather not fall on a slippery slope, but if Engineer gets class limits, which class would be next? One of the reasons I play Skial vanilla servers is the lack of class limits. Which you'll find aplenty in other communities.

Almost everything described here is a common pitfall with payload that ultimately falls down to the map and the teams coordinating. The vanilla game doesn't enforce class limits in casual, we shouldn't either. I shouldn't be restricted from playing a class I want to play. Its entirely on the team to coordinate and use the map to their advantage, and as much as I'd like to not burst many payload regulars ideals, our vanilla servers aren't comp servers. they're pubs. I'm all for working as a team and coordinating but its always going to inevitably go awry and you can't become seriously upset by it. Playing pub servers with a comp-mindset is setting yourself up for disappointment. At best its making it easier for less brain-involved gameplay, at worst its driving players away into the servers of other communities that don't have class restrictions. They'll consider this sole class limitation arbitrary and not give any further thought to it.

I understand that the matter of adding class restrictions is a debatable addition. I try not to take this in a competitive mindset as I’m not a competitive player either, I don’t like to get serious while I play and I agree much of the fun of skial is it’s open ended nature, I don’t want to deny that. I know that if class restrictions are added it becomes a question of if other servers should have it and what class needs it next and it becomes a hassle, which is why I’m only suggesting it to the payload server as the casual servers usually run payload as well and those are plenty free for such open ended gameplay. I don’t want that to be taken away but I do think maybe a option vote or perhaps trying out the suggestion might help better the experience and might be considered a welcome change.

It isn’t the biggest issue and I’m fine with that but it’s just the reality of the issue is that most people will not coordinate, you can push others to participate and give heads up but again no one is the boss of another player, everyone should play how they like. The issue is how frequently last push gets stumped where even some coordinated pushes just fall through due to sheer volume is sentry fire making it extremely difficult to secure a victory from Blus end which can feel like it was a pointless effort and waste of time. My hope out of this kind of suggestion being implemented would simply make the Payload server less stagnant near the end of rounds. If engie could somehow be restricted near last that would be probably a much more lenient addition but that seems like an impossibility to add.

It’s not something that upsets me personally and even I am well aware that this suggestion might not be the best recommendation but it is simply a suggestion which if enough people like the idea may support, if not that is completely fine. My ideal outcome would perhaps having an option toggle for such restrictions for players for vote on but I know that is probably not on the table and so it’s have it or don’t.