Declined In Votemenu. Replace, "Griefing" with, "Counter-Productive Gameplay".

[Tayto]

Lemme preface this by saying that Ryder8 is my on my friend's list, but starting this thread doesn't have much to do with this suggestion other than making me care enough to read the ban appeal. This is also not an appeal on his behalf or a way to overturn his gag. It's like, for one day anyway.

After reading https://www.skial.com/threads/appeal-ryder8.61555/, I can see why there was confusion when it came to accurately starting a menu vote. The actual definition of griefing according to Wikipedia is, "The act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting the immersion of another player in their gameplay."

Skial's definition of griefing is just being counter-productive. I can troll and grief people all I want in games. I just have to play while doing it. For more accurate reporting replace, "Griefing" with, "Counter-Productive Gameplay" as the reason for starting a voteban.

I understand that, "Griefing" is the go-to term for a lot of people when it comes to counter-productive gameplay, but it's still incorrect to use it as a reason for starting a vote if you're only going to use a part of the definition when it comes to handling the rules.

What this change will accomplish:

• Replacing a broad term with something more specific; as Skial is only using a portion of what Griefing means.
• Cut down on the confusion of reporting players; as now they know for sure that, "being an asshole" isn't even in the selection. It leaves no room to even believe that they can start a vote based off of it.
  
• Lower the number of false votekicks as, "Counter-Productive Gameplay" is far more clear and specific.
  
• Lessen the number of false reports.
  
• Thin-out the number of reports against false votekicks.
• Ease the workload on the Admins who have to go through these false reports and reports on false votekicks.

 

[Defibyoulater]

Counter Griefing: Team Fortress
+1

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

I think both of them create the same problem

 

[Tayto]

I think both of them create the same problem

Elaborate.

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

well, like the guy in the report. people may misunderstand, and think what they were doing wasn't wrong.

 

[Tayto]

well, like the guy in the report. people may misunderstand, and think what they were doing wasn't wrong.

Well of course. That's why the term in the votemenu should go from Broad to Specific. Eliminate the other variables caused by the term, "griefing" and there's less confusion all around.

It's a made-up term and the definition of it is little more than an opinion. Griefing means something else to other people. Let's change the term in the votemenu to something that doesn't have multiple meanings and interpretations.

"Counter-Productive Gameplay". It's not hard to know when someone is doing something counter-productive in their gameplay such as setting up reverse-teles, friendlying, congaing for entire rounds and so on. This report/votereason would only care about their gameplay, and not that the person you're reporting is just an annoying asshole.

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

when i see reports for griefing, it's usually related to players being friendly. And for that i think changing it to counter productive gameplay might make more sense.

 

[ly_dee]

Most people are used to the term 'griefing' and know what it means. Only a few ignorant people don't, because they don't bother reading the rules. Shit talking isn't against the rules and has nothing to do with griefing and can be solved by client muting the person who's shit talking, so i don't see why one can be confused or unsure whether being an asshole is called 'griefing' or not.

 

[Tayto]

Most people are used to the term 'griefing' and know what it means. Only a few ignorant people don't, because they don't bother reading the rules. Shit talking isn't against the rules and has nothing to do with griefing and can be solved by client muting the person who's shit talking, so i don't see why one can be confused or unsure whether being an asshole is called 'griefing' or not.

Because it's an opinionated term, and it's entire definition is just that. Griefing means multiple things to multiple people. It doesn't just refer to counter-productive gameplay. There is no reason at this point to even use the term if Skial is only going to use one opinion of the phrase.

Just because they don't read the rules anyway is still no reason to keep it the way it is. Changing, "Griefing" to, "Counter-Productive Gameplay" gives a clear reason as to why someone is being voted against and even covers everything that Skial defines as Griefing. Just because you personally don't see why one can be confused or unsure is kinda moot because, "Griefing" is an opinionated made-up term to begin with.

I personally do not come from games where Griefing is a common practice, and I've been relatively lucky as far as TF2 is concerned, so I can see where people might be confused. Even I thought griefing also covered being an obnoxious asshole at one point, and that's where a lot of the confusion is and that's where I see a lot of people starting a votekick for griefing when someone's just being an asshole.

Griefing is an opinionated made-up term. It's definition varies from individual to individual. This alone is a good reason to not be using it when it comes to handling the rules even if there is a common consensus on the definition. If you're already using the term, "Griefing" to only mean, "Counter-Productive Gameplay" then just change it to that.

 

[DaivdBaekr]

Then we'd just start getting votes against people for playing battle medic or being the team's third sniper.

1 person saying they don't understand what "griefing" is over the course of 3+ years seems like a pretty good deal to me.

 

[Tayto]

Then we'd just start getting votes against people for playing battle medic or being the team's third sniper.

1 person saying they don't understand what "griefing" is over the course of 3+ years seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Several things wrong with this statement.

For starters, while Ryder8's thread was my example. I am sure there are other reports of voteabuse that started out as a misunderstanding to what griefing means in skial's opinion of griefing. I'm even willing to go through this month's reports and ban appeals of admins wasting their time on false griefing reports that could have been avoided had, "griefing" been replaced with what Skial actually enforces against, which is counter-productive gameplay.

I have never once in my almost 2k+ hours of TF2 seen a vote start against people for playing a class in any server. I've seen classes capped or disabled, but never have I seen someone be punished for it. Even so, votes for that would still be a whole lot less common than people starting votemenus because they thought Griefing also meant being an asshole on comms/chat. Are you unwilling to give this a try to see how this works?

"We've been doing it for X amount of time" is not a good reason to keep it the way it is. Again. "Griefing" is a made-up term and it's definition varies from location to location and individual to individual. This alone is a good reason to not use it when it comes to handling rules.

Keeping the term in the votemenu is a double-edged sword due to people believing that griefing also means being an asshole or obnoxious. Sure, you'll get the people who are actually griefing in Skial's definition of the term, but you're still going to get false reports and votes because you're using a term that covers more than what you're enforcing against.

Please give a good reason as to why it should stay the way it is. I've given over a half-dozen reasons as to why it should change. So far, I have yet to see a single solid argument as to why it should stay.

Tradition is a poor reason. Consensus on what the term means is poor as well. I have given you a much better, 3-word phrase that covers everything Skial considers as griefing. It's clear, and there is much less room for misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

 

[Chance]

Several things wrong with this statement.

For starters, while Ryder8's thread was my example. I am sure there are other reports of voteabuse that started out as a misunderstanding to what griefing means in skial's opinion of griefing. I'm even willing to go through the other reports and ban appeals of admins wasting their time on false griefing reports that could have been avoided had, "griefing" been replaced with what Skial actually enforces against, which is counter-productive gameplay.

I have never once in my almost 2k+ hours of TF2 seen a vote start against people for playing a class in any server. I've seen classes capped or disabled, but never have I seen someone be punished for it.

"We've been doing it for X amount of time" is not a good reason to keep the way it is. Again. "Griefing" is a made-up term and it's definition varies from location to location and individual to individual. This alone is a good reason to not use it when it comes to handling rules.

I personally have seen votes called on medics healing Snipers on 2fort.

 

[Tayto]

I personally have seen votes called on medics healing Snipers on 2fort.

Really? Wow. That's extra-dumb. It's not even counter-productive because at least they're building ubers and healing people.

That being said. I'm sure votes for something as dumb as that are still few and far between. Much less common than not knowing that, "Griefing" doesn't also cover, "being an obnoxious asshole".

 

[Maddo]

"Griefing" is a made-up term and it's definition varies from location to location and individual to individual.

That's the whole point. It's the admin who decide what is griefing, and the admin have been chosen through a transparent process, involving any who wish to contribute.
Therefore the admin are the ones who are the best to decide what constitutes griefing within Skial at any given situation.
The term 'griefing' is also there to stop people circumnavigating the rules, due to the fact that it is so ambiguous, it can be applied without argument.

 

[Tayto]

The term 'griefing' is also there to stop people circumnavigating the rules, due to the fact that it is so ambiguous, it can be applied without argument.

This here is something I did not consider. Having the term be broad on purpose so that it's left up to the admin to apply it.

Good point.