FF2/VSH - Is it even a "Boss" anymore?

[Loaxy]

I think we all can say it's been more of a "hunt the boss down" scenario instead of the "boss hunting reds down" one. I've been a lifelong player since the early release of the VSH/FF2 plugins. I've seen the highs, and the lows of most servers until they've inevitably imploded, or retired. I was wondering if we could adjust some things for the current FF2 plugin(i can help as im learning to code in sourcepawn).

My recommendations:

BOSS/HALE:
50% knockback reduction <---- Main issue.
+add time to weigh-down/stomp mechanic
Make stomp and super-jump on two different cool-down timers

REDS:
Weapons that need Full/Mini-Crits
Demo Primary's (Secondary if boots/basejumper equipped)
Spy Handguns

Would be neat to see a "Glass Cannon" class that has a high-risk, high-reward gameplay. Perhaps make a melee for heavy reduce his speed by 80% and give him 1500% damage?

 

[creamer]

I agree with the "hunt the boss down" scenario being problematic. It'd be nice if there was something to keep the boss from running away or ducking in and out of combat. Especially on larger maps like supermario, warehouse, urbanworks, etc. In my opinion it's not fun to play against. I can understand that until something is changed, it's a part of the gamemode and player playstyle. I agree with the boss recommendations.

 

[Gingy]

From the little I can say I've played Hale/FF - the knockback is atrocious. It makes me have to rely on mega-jumping and strafing mid-air to try and get kills which I get flamed for regardless of outcome.

 

[Loaxy]

Consider removing 2fortdesk, nebula, and skyhigh, and adding more maps without cliffs/resets for boss to fall off of. I can string together good up-to-date versions of popular maps without exploits.

-main reason is I, as well as others too, have only been able to fight hale for about 2 seconds before hes launched off the edge(especially skyhighresort)
-secondary reason, rotation has been the same for 3+ months, quarterly change would be sweet, and you could add in some temp maps for fun.

 

[nod]

I think we all can say it's been more of a "hunt the boss down" scenario instead of the "boss hunting reds down" one.

He's right, and it was a rather strange adjustment to make when I was new to the server. I might just be out of touch with how things have been in recent years but when I played FF2 and VSH back in their glory days it was always the opposite of this. The whole incentive of the gamemode was always to outlive your team & chunk the most damage. Now it's a game of who can find what portion of the map the boss was launched to - for the entire match. I don't necessarily think a total overhaul is needed especially since the server has garnered its own following/community the way it is, however it is certainly an open secret that a good majority of the regular players came in the first place searching for what I described earlier.

BOSS/HALE:
50% knockback reduction <---- Main issue.

Now this is something that is universally agreed upon. Ask any person of your choosing that's played on this server & they will tell you the same thing. The learning curve for playing boss through kb here is so steep that I'd say at least half of the Hale rounds per map are killbind/disconnects most nights. There are several things you could blame this on but an overwhelming majority of people will say they can't deal with being shot 350 ft across the map by a level 1 sentry.

Consider removing 2fortdesk, nebula, and skyhigh, and adding more maps without cliffs/resets for boss to fall off of. I can string together good up-to-date versions of popular maps without exploits.

I'm gonna disagree with the first half of this. You make a great point but there are plenty folks who actually like playing on these maps even through the chaos.

Spoiler

(me :^))

Besides, if the knockback reduction ends up happening, these maps become playable again. I am, however, very much in favor of tossing some new maps on the rotation, and I'm certain a large portion of others would be too.

I'm glad Loaxy made this thread, cause these things are talked about pretty regularly on the server. Like I said, a complete rewrite isn't necessary since the server still packs in full lobbies every night - it is super successful in its own right, but there is a very big audience for a mode that is more reminiscent of VSH, where it's an actual boss fight. I'm aware of the old Skial VSH server and I'm also aware that a thousand and one people have asked for it back, but I figured it was worth mentioning here.

 

[LizzieSteph]

I outright avoid playing as hale almost entirely because of how extreme the knockback is on every weapon. It 100% needs some kind of reduction. And how many rounds just devolve into one or two players just blasting hale away for 10 minutes.

Consider removing 2fortdesk, nebula, and skyhigh, and adding more maps without cliffs/resets for boss to fall off of. I can string together good up-to-date versions of popular maps without exploits.

Also the last thing we need to do is remove more maps (other than cinema) With how small the map pool is now we should focus on suggesting new maps instead of complaining and asking for old ones to get removed.

 

[Bottiger]

but when I played FF2 and VSH back in their glory days it was always the opposite of this. The whole incentive of the gamemode was always to outlive your team & chunk the most damage. Now it's a game of who can find what portion of the map the boss was launched to

This is how I balanced the vsh server when it still had people. I'd like to think this is why our server was the last community vsh server alive.

I believe most people play on ff2 because of the boss variety rather than any other reason so the balancing isn't as important. Even if the bosses are underpowered.

The players tend to prefer underpowered bosses because most people are only the boss for a small fraction of time and it isn't fun to lose 90% of the time.

This isn't a problem until everyone starts leaving the boss queue and the rest that don't know how to do that just afk when they become boss (which is what happened to VSH). I have no idea if FF2 has gotten to this point, but the boss variety will always compensate/hide this problem.

Also please note I am not balancing FF2 nor do I ever want to. This is handled by other people.

 

[nod]

I believe most people play on ff2 because of the boss variety rather than any other reason so the balancing isn't as important. Even if the bosses are underpowered.

The boss variety is great, it's the idea that you have to learn how to surf through knockback as an added bonus to learning how to play the boss that doesn't sit right with people. If nothing else, please take note of the amount of people that mention how ridiculous the kb situation is. Thank you for getting back to us.

 

[Loaxy]

This is how I balanced the vsh server when it still had people. I'd like to think this is why our server was the last community vsh server alive.

I believe most people play on ff2 because of the boss variety rather than any other reason so the balancing isn't as important. Even if the bosses are underpowered.

The players tend to prefer underpowered bosses because most people are only the boss for a small fraction of time and it isn't fun to lose 90% of the time.

This isn't a problem until everyone starts leaving the boss queue and the rest that don't know how to do that just afk when they become boss (which is what happened to VSH). I have no idea if FF2 has gotten to this point, but the boss variety will always compensate/hide this problem.

Also please note I am not balancing FF2 nor do I ever want to. This is handled by other people.

I can see how it would be balanced with a lower player count. The smaller Red Team does more damage/knockback to survive much longer against some of the one-hit bosses. I can see how that worked for getting it started easier, and maybe kept a decent player count on the server more often. But as far as having a full server, the knockback is unplayable to some extent unless you're playing bosses with decent range-based rage mechanics or surfing off bullets with one punch. You'll only see the same 6-7 people(who knowingly have the boss turned on) rotating on boss out of the 32-player count, and the ones who get randomly chosen, end up using their kill-bind over half the time.

Time and time again I've seen people AMPED(not using the word lightly, people are stoked) to see a ff2 server that's popping with A TON of old regulars still there. We're all just kinda clueless on how to do anything about this as no active admins are on the server(that we know of). Any direction would be great, even putting me in contact with the people who handle the FF2 plugin would be greatly appreciated.

Also boss variety is 12/10, just need some reworks (globama - politics)

 

[Loaxy]

I outright avoid playing as hale almost entirely because of how extreme the knockback is on every weapon. It 100% needs some kind of reduction. And how many rounds just devolve into one or two players just blasting hale away for 10 minutes.

Also the last thing we need to do is remove more maps (other than cinema) With how small the map pool is now we should focus on suggesting new maps instead of complaining and asking for old ones to get removed.

I would want to swap maps over removing. I too agree the map selection is quite sparse as is.

 

[Bottiger]

Knockback was highly reduced when I was balancing the VSH server.

Again I do not wish to handle FF2 balancing so you will want to address your complaints to @Percilius @herp 105.4 @soos @DanishSoup . I basically just add whatever settings they request.

I am not sure they are on the forums more than discord these days.

 

[Loaxy]

Thank you!!

 

[Koshi-tan]

I think we all can say it's been more of a "hunt the boss down" scenario instead of the "boss hunting reds down" one. I've been a lifelong player since the early release of the VSH/FF2 plugins. I've seen the highs, and the lows of most servers until they've inevitably imploded, or retired. I was wondering if we could adjust some things for the current FF2 plugin(i can help as im learning to code in sourcepawn).

My recommendations:

BOSS/HALE:
50% knockback reduction <---- Main issue.
+add time to weigh-down/stomp mechanic
Make stomp and super-jump on two different cool-down timers

REDS:
Weapons that need Full/Mini-Crits
Demo Primary's (Secondary if boots/basejumper equipped)
Spy Handguns

Would be neat to see a "Glass Cannon" class that has a high-risk, high-reward gameplay. Perhaps make a melee for heavy reduce his speed by 80% and give him 1500% damage?

It seems hard to balance because gameplay is highly different depending on the map size and player count. A number of bosses will stray way more toward a hide-attack-repeat strategy because the sheer number of players in a close area means you will just lose if you don't. I certainly agree with overall reducing knockback on bosses, but also think more HP scaling per player on some bosses would help a lot. For example, Miku on FF2 is generally fine on like 16-24 player counts, but approaching 30 player count will lead to her losing really quickly unless she hides a lot, leading to this hunt gameplay.
Edit, for the record i'm not saying this is the case for all bosses, since FF2 does have relatively common hale wins.