Picture Truth Nuke

[Cream Tea]

Truth nuke incoming...

>TF2 is dy-ACK!
>Covid is ov-ACK!

TF2 is not dying, in fact it has more players now than it had in 2018, so I don't want to see that excuse anymore. The other thing is there was of course a boost during Covid and since that's over the numbers have dropped but they're still higher than some of the previous periods of TF2's life.

So here's what happened in a nutshell: During Covid a bunch of (mostly new) admins were giving out permanent bans & mutes like candy while the continuous influx of players during Covid masked the problem it was creating. We're now seeing the undeniable damage that was done which has led to Skial no longer being the largest TF2 community.

I can find just as many comments from Reddit saying that Skial is bad because of admins.

Source.

In January it was admitted that permanently banning or muting players was harming player numbers (no shit) so it was decided put a stop to that except for extreme cases (which is how it used to be) and while there was a mass pardon in January it doesn't mean much when many players have already long-since moved on from Skial or simply have no idea that they've been unbanned.

Why do I still care so much you wonder? Well perhaps it's because I have contributed to this community probably more than anyone else and I don't wish to see what I've done go to waste because of talentless individuals imposing their agendas and giving zero shits about the damage their actions cause.

 

[Jermaphobe]

Citing redditors as a source is setting yourself up for failure.
For as many valid criticisms redditors make there's far more lies & bullshit they just make up, thats been going on for longer than I've been admin here

 

[Cream Tea]

Citing redditors as a source is setting yourself up for failure.
For as many valid criticisms redditors make there's far more lies & bullshit they just make up, thats been going on for longer than I've been admin here

I'm only citing Reddit because that's what bottiger and many others did when the adding a "Toxicity" rule was being considered. Nobody should be listening to what redditors have to say but here we are now with a load of dead servers and more on the brink of death. Clearly the direction that particular individuals have been taking Skial towards has not been working.

 

[Jermaphobe]

Citing redditors as a source is setting yourself up for failure.
For as many valid criticisms redditors make there's far more lies & bullshit they just make up, thats been going on for longer than I've been admin here

https://www.skial.com/threads/whats-up-with-admin-abuse-in-tf2-servers.124921/
https://www.skial.com/threads/i-think-that-skial-sucks.124889/
https://www.skial.com/threads/so-wh...-do-you-think-will-be-put-behind-bars.124514/

All page one of news watch, redditor(s) sharing misinformation or straight lies about Skial in some shape or form

I'm only citing Reddit because that's what bottiger and many others did when the adding a "Toxicity" rule was being considered. Nobody should be listening to what redditors have to say but here we are now with a load of dead servers and more on the brink of death. Clearly the direction that particular individuals have been taking Skial towards has not been working.

That is true, but the problem here is that we get way more of this than any other community. And the number of negative comments/videos seems to outnumber the positive ones. And there are competing communities that do have toxicity rules that use this excuse to tell people not to play here.



Take a look videos like this where we're getting blamed for the way other people act on the servers, and all the comments saying things like "this is why I avoid skial".

There's also no proof that LoL lost a bunch of players over toxicity rules.



The fact is, people aren't satsified with mutes or votemutes anymore.

Edit: The above was quoted from Bottiger, I tried to quote it & paste it here but for some reason mobile formatting messed it up

 

[Blade D_Hero]

On the Reddit point: There's an alarming amount of people on there who confused Saigns with Skial. You're also more likely to post in a public forum if you have something negative to say, especially if you got banned or muted. I'm not inclined to believe anonymous users who might have a bone to pick with the servers, even if they're to blame.

On the Skial not being the biggest community anymore point: I'm assuming the largest community is now UGC, with 83 servers. As of 3:00 pm PST, they have 398 players in-game. Compare that to Skial, which has 33 servers and 329 players. UGC has long operated under the "more is more" philosophy, hosting 3x more servers than is necessary so they can make the "we have the most servers" claim. Considering there's only about 70 more players on UGC right now, and around 50 of their servers are completely empty, the owner(s) probably just have more money to burn instead of having to focus good business practices. Whether that comes from the playerbase or outside funding is unknown, but it just doesn't make financial sense to have that many dead servers up unless you have the means to do so, and want to make claims based on amount of servers up.

Looking at their rules, they don't do anything much different than Skial. Here's a link: UGC Rules

I also found a ban appeal where the dude got banned for retard, so they're not more lenient.

The main reason community servers are dying is because there's no Valve support for it. Yes, more people may be playing now than in 2018, but how many of those people are new? How many don't even get offered the option to sort through community servers? Or even know that option is there? It's not a moderation issue, it's a support issue. Bottiger and other server owners have repeatedly, and correctly, called out the treatment of community servers being the main reason player-bases are suffering. If I started playing TF2 right now, why would I go through the trouble of finding a community I enjoy when I can just boot up a match in 30 seconds and start playing?

I remember when I first started playing on Skial in 2011, the community option was front-and-center. That continued up until meet your match and then everything started going downhill. Moderation chases off maybe less than 5-10% of the playerbase, and there's not really a large, popular server host that has moderation that's lax - or, at least, more lax than Skial's. You're pointing to a fake boogeyman instead of looking at the real issue.

 

[Cream Tea]

On the Reddit point: There's an alarming amount of people on there who confused Saigns with Skial. You're also more likely to post in a public forum if you have something negative to say, especially if you got banned or muted. I'm not inclined to believe anonymous users who might have a bone to pick with the servers, even if they're to blame.

I'm aware of that but I'm always seeing the justification for the way certain things are handled on here coming from either Reddit or YouTube.

On the Skial not being the biggest community anymore point: I'm assuming the largest community is now UGC, with 83 servers. As of 3:00 pm PST, they have 398 players in-game. Compare that to Skial, which has 33 servers and 329 players. UGC has long operated under the "more is more" philosophy, hosting 3x more servers than is necessary so they can make the "we have the most servers" claim. Considering there's only about 70 more players on UGC right now, and around 50 of their servers are completely empty, the owner(s) probably just have more money to burn instead of having to focus good business practices. Whether that comes from the playerbase or outside funding is unknown, but it just doesn't make financial sense to have that many dead servers up unless you have the means to do so, and want to make claims based on amount of servers up.

I'm going to come back to this at the end.

Looking at their rules, they don't do anything much different than Skial. Here's a link: UGC Rules

Something that has stood out to me is that UGC does allow music to be played in voicechat if the majority of the server is okay with it. Meanwhile you literally muted a guy for three months just because he was rapping over the microphone, granted it was overturned, but what made you think that was fair?

I also found a ban appeal where the dude got banned for retard, so they're not more lenient.

I never said they were but they do some things better.

The main reason community servers are dying is because there's no Valve support for it. Yes, more people may be playing now than in 2018, but how many of those people are new? How many don't even get offered the option to sort through community servers? Or even know that option is there? It's not a moderation issue, it's a support issue. Bottiger and other server owners have repeatedly, and correctly, called out the treatment of community servers being the main reason player-bases are suffering. If I started playing TF2 right now, why would I go through the trouble of finding a community I enjoy when I can just boot up a match in 30 seconds and start playing?

I remember when I first started playing on Skial in 2011, the community option was front-and-center. That continued up until meet your match and then everything started going downhill. Moderation chases off maybe less than 5-10% of the playerbase, and there's not really a large, popular server host that has moderation that's lax - or, at least, more lax than Skial's. You're pointing to a fake boogeyman instead of looking at the real issue.

The removal of quickplay certainly had an impact on the vanilla Skial servers but Skial doesn't only run vanilla servers. Can you explain why Deathrun (EU) and Zombie Escape have tanked? There are always players looking for custom servers on the browser, perhaps not as many as those who just want to play casual, but they're still around.

Going back to what you said about UGC. I could also make the argument that the removal of quickplay is affecting them just as much yet they're still around currently ahead of Skial and before you say "they mostly host trade servers" well if that's the case then that proves people are still opening up their server browsers, doesn't it?

 

[Blade D_Hero]

I'm aware of that but I'm always seeing the justification for the way certain things are handled on here coming from either Reddit or YouTube.

That's the court of public opinion for you. I'd also wager that a lot of the talking points on Reddit/YouTube mirror suggestions and complaints brought up by players and forum users, so while maybe you could point to a specific thread and say "AHA, this is what made them do X", it's more often than not a series of events that result in a change.

Something that has stood out to me is that UGC does allow music to be played in voicechat if the server if everyone on the server is okay with it. Meanwhile you literally muted a guy for three months just because he was rapping over the microphone, granted it was overturned, but what made you think that was fair?

Priors, dodging on alts, repeatedly muted for the same thing. 3 months was too much, so I adjusted it down.

I never said they were but they do some things better.

What, specifically? I don't play custom modes too often so if it's something related to Deathrun or VSH, maybe, but nothing they do with the regular gamemodes makes me think they're doing anything better. If it's a moderation thing, they seem to be more lax on certain things (like micspam) but more draconian towards others (whatever they deem "hate speech", which has many fewer examples than we provide). Ultimately, I'd say Skial and UGC are about the same in terms of moderation.

Quickplay certainly had an impact on the vanilla Skial servers but Skial doesn't only run vanilla servers. Can you explain why Deathrun (EU) and Zombie Escape have tanked? There are always players looking for custom servers on the browser, perhaps not as many as those who just want to play casual, but they're still around.

Going back to what you said about UGC. I could also make the argument that quickplay is affecting them just as much yet they're still around currently ahead of Skial and before you say "they mostly host trade servers" well if that's the case then that proves people are still opening up their server browsers, doesn't it?

As mentioned before, I won't pretend to be an expert on the custom server playerbase. From what I have seen in the last 15 years on Skial, though, is that they're some of the most fickle players on TF2. One map change or feature update, and all hell breaks loose. You can also argue that sometimes people just don't want to play that gamemode anymore. I played ZE for like three weeks and then never launched it again because it wasn't my thing; I'm sure I'm not alone. Unless you could do a poll of all ZE players on other servers and ask them "did you play on Skial ZE before and if so, why did you stop?, you're never going to get a concrete answer. I'm also sure some of them left because of moderation; everyone's different. But you can't change all the rules to cater to a small subset of the playerbase, it's not feasible in the long term.

On your UGC point, they have a wider net, as I mentioned. If you are one of the few players who boot up the community search tab, and you have no "allegiance" to a particular server, I'd imagine you're going to jump into a server that is close to full. With 83 UGC servers vs 33 Skial servers, you're more likely to see a UGC server that fits the bill. If my memory is correct, this isn't the first time they have had more players; it ebbs and flows. The player count stats I mentioned in my last post were also not as accurate as they could have been, considering it was the middle of the day on a weekday. Track player counts across a month at peak times, and the numbers might be more accurate.

 

[Cream Tea]

But you can't change all the rules to cater to a small subset of the playerbase, it's not feasible in the long term.

Why not? There are already different rules for friendlying depending on the gamemode. Would it really be a stretch to allow micspam (within reason) on say, deathrun and zombie escape? There's also the fact that the type of players who play on the custom gamemodes tend to be edgier in general but you're trying to moderate them the exact same way you moderate the players on 2Fort or Turbine and it doesn't work.

 

[Metroidz]

If only you put this much effort into a job.

 

[Maddo]

You need to show the same graph, but for Skial servers overall to have any merit to your supposition.
Looks to me that the general trend was slow decline after the end of the line update, right up until covid hit, now we are back to the pre covid decline, meaning a pretty sharp downturn in the last 2 years, which is what I see people are complaining about, and wrongly blaming admin for it
There have always been complaints about admin, it's part of the game/culture, I (albeit anecdotally) see the same level of complaints against them now as back in 2012.
You are right, TF2 is not dying, but it is getting old and slowly going downhill.

 

[Zeo]

Are you winning yet son?

 

[a long cat]

Can you explain why ... and Zombie Escape ha(s) tanked?

dont have a horse in this race but ZE is struggling because a series of balance changes have made it unfun to play, a large chunk of regs got tired of asking for better and either quit or moved to css/cs2 and ZE is incredibly reliant on a seasoned reg base so it's dominoed.

thats at least how i see it, corrections welcome from smarter people if needed

 

[Cream Tea]

You need to show the same graph, but for Skial servers overall to have any merit to your supposition.

I'm trying not to reference UGC but for the sake of the discussion here are the statistics from the last 7 days on both UGC and Skial:

Source 1, Source 2

It does fluctuate but overall UGC has the higher peaks plus they have a lower bot-to-player ratio compared to Skial.

There have always been complaints about admin, it's part of the game/culture, I (albeit anecdotally) see the same level of complaints against them now as back in 2012.

You don't even play the game anymore so how would you know what's really going on? There aren't just the complaints you see in online places there's plenty more complaints made in-game and on private Discord servers.

You are right, TF2 is not dying

At least we agree on something.

Are you winning yet son?

Wow, you really debunked my claims there!


You guys are so obsessed with trying to dunk on me that you're ignoring the genuine concerns that I'm bringing up. I've already said that I don't wish for Skial to die early if it can be prevented because that would be a waste of my efforts. I'm only trying to protect my favourite servers from dying.

 

[Metroidz]

Not trying to dunk on you. Sarcastically responding and metaphorically rolling eyes at your nonstop whining triades.

 

[Blade D_Hero]

Why not? There are already different rules for friendlying depending on the gamemode. Would it really be a stretch to allow micspam (within reason) on say, deathrun and zombie escape? There's also the fact that the type of players who play on the custom gamemodes tend to be edgier in general but you're trying to moderate them the exact same way you moderate the players on 2Fort or Turbine and it doesn't work.

Most players, whether it be custom gamemodes or regular maps, are primarily there to play the game. They don't use voice chat, they might use text chat every so often, they don't go on the forums, etc. Next time you play, do a count and see what percentage of people on the server actively communicate - I've done this exercise before on servers I frequent, and it's usually in the 30-40% range.

If something changes, whether that be moderation, map choice, or gameplay mechanics, those players just leave. You're basing your desire for lesser moderation and different rules on the vocal minority, who will then complain about something else when that gets changed. The reason the servers get filled to begin with is that the player base at large is okay with the state of the server, so you risk losing those players who don't interact with the community but enjoy playing with changes like that. It's a balancing act, and sometimes changes lean one way or the other.

I'm trying not to reference UGC but for the sake of the discussion here are the statistics from the last 7 days on both UGC and Skial:

Source 1, Source 2

It does fluctuate but overall UGC has the higher peaks plus they have a lower bot-to-player ratio compared to Skial.

This does a good job of showing the numbers, but not the why. There can be any number of reasons they have more players:

A. More servers to choose from, making it easier for them to appear in the server browser (My personal theory).
B. Different moderation standards that people prefer (Your theory? As we saw, it's more or less the same as Skial, so I doubt it's playing a big part).
C. More preferable gameplay mechanics/map selections on custom modes (Hard to determine, but it's possible).
D. Larger server regular base, historically (Going back to the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mindset, plus with more servers available, there would be more regulars).
E-Z. A myriad of other reasons I can't think of right now.

It's hard to determine the qualitative reasons as to why people pick a specific server group; likely, it's a mix of all things listed above, with more weight given to certain reasons, so it's hard to play around with the formula and try to decipher what needs to be done to grow.

You guys are so obsessed with trying to dunk on me that you're ignoring the genuine concerns that I'm bringing up. I've already said that I don't wish for Skial to die early if it can be prevented because that would be a waste of my efforts. I'm only trying to protect my favourite servers from dying.

You're actively responding to the people who aren't interested in engaging in conversation, and then choosing to not engage with the bulk of what I wrote. Cat's response above on ZE also points to what I've been saying - balance changes pushing people away, since that impacts gameplay much more than moderation does. If the game mode is fun to play, that's what brings in a regular player base. From what I've seen, Counter Strike ZE is easier to balance (don't have 9 classes to deal with) and has established gameplay mechanics that work for most players, hence the move.

 

[Cream Tea]

"Let me tell you what is actually wrong" says the guy who hasn't played on the servers for over a year:

It's pointless trying to discuss matters with someone who isn't there and can't possibly know what's really going on but still thinks they know better than the guy who is actually there.

Regarding deathrun however, I can assure you all that the majority of players on there do use the chat a lot and having an active chat is part of the whole deathrun experience. Nobody wants to play on deathrun when everyone is silent. However, as usual, you're going to blame it on anything but the very problems that I've witnessed myself as an active player on deathrun; a gamemode which I've never seen you play on in my life.

 

[Winnie]

"Let me tell you what is actually wrong" says the guy who hasn't played on the servers for over a year:



It's pointless trying to discuss matters with someone who isn't there and can't possibly know what's really going on but still thinks they know better than the guy who is actually there.

Regarding deathrun however, I can assure you all that the majority of players on there do use the chat a lot and having an active chat is part of the whole deathrun experience. Nobody wants to play on deathrun when everyone is silent. However, as usual, you're going to blame it on anything but the very problems that I've witnessed myself as an active player on deathrun; a gamemode which I've never seen you play on in my life.

It’s hilarious to observe also how few don't care to be perceived that they are directly killing a game mode off either.

It’s not fun to them is their excuse why they rather lower the player count. You made maps that are still in rotation today for DR while the same can’t be same by others. I can’t help but to wonder what projects are even being done (if at all).

 

[Cream Tea]

You made maps that are still in rotation today for DR while the same can’t be same by others.

Meanwhile certain admins seem to think they know better than me despite never playing.

 

[Blade D_Hero]

"Let me tell you what is actually wrong" says the guy who hasn't played on the servers for over a year:



It's pointless trying to discuss matters with someone who isn't there and can't possibly know what's really going on but still thinks they know better than the guy who is actually there.

Regarding deathrun however, I can assure you all that the majority of players on there do use the chat a lot and having an active chat is part of the whole deathrun experience. Nobody wants to play on deathrun when everyone is silent. However, as usual, you're going to blame it on anything but the very problems that I've witnessed myself as an active player on deathrun; a gamemode which I've never seen you play on in my life.

It’s pointless discussing anything with you because it all has to be some GOTCHA moment. You’re not interested in actual discussion, it’s either your way or the highway. Your “fix” is to turn one of the servers into 4chan-lite and bask in the adoration of your similarly emotionally-delayed friends when those changes go live. You point to one thing and one thing only, and then when provided with alternatives that dozens of other people have agreed on (just research “community player counts decline”), you stick your head in the sand.

It’s also funny you’re worried about DR of all servers when it’s one of the most consistently filled servers we have. Clearly, it’s not in the decrepit state you want it to be in.

 

[Cream Tea]

It’s pointless discussing anything with you because it all has to be some GOTCHA moment. You’re not interested in actual discussion, it’s either your way or the highway. Your “fix” is to turn one of the servers into 4chan-lite and bask in the adoration of your similarly emotionally-delayed friends when those changes go live. You point to one thing and one thing only, and then when provided with alternatives that dozens of other people have agreed on (just research “community player counts decline”), you stick your head in the sand.

It would be easier if you simply told me that you don't want to make any changes that would admit I was right.

It’s also funny you’re worried about DR of all servers when it’s one of the most consistently filled servers we have. Clearly, it’s not in the decrepit state you want it to be in.

Both servers used to be consistently full but now it's only one (which is also struggling) so clearly it is in the decrepit state that I've said it's in.