New Changing Payload Servers to 40 player is a mistake

[Sam Alt-Man]

I searched the forum but don't see discussion on the recent change. Changing the PL server to allow up to 40 players (plus VIP if any) is a mistake. The rounds already feel different. Areas of the map that were already prone to being unbalanced toward RED or BLU now feel unplayable at times. 32 was already a stretch beyond how the game was designed, but usually works. This takes it way beyond what these maps can handle. I'd vote we change it back.

 

[PhatBoi]

Honestly wasn't expecting a mod to straight up admit transphobia isn't considered an "extremely serious" offense on Skial lol

 

[Jermaphobe]

Honestly wasn't expecting a mod to straight up admit transphobia isn't considered an "extremely serious" offense on Skial lol

Misrepresent and straw-man him if you want, it does not make you right

Here is the list of examples Skial considers serious offenses

 

[gala]

Honestly wasn't expecting a mod to straight up admit transphobia isn't considered an "extremely serious" offense on Skial lol

Don't strawman

I mean stuff like doxxing and pedophilia which are very serious and illegal

 

[Bottiger]

One of the most popular competitors to skial pl+ is run by a woman where they instantly ban people like this, and now that server fills up earlier and empties later than skial.

can someone tell me what server it is so I can go play there, like dm me it or smn

 

[Oprah Of Flamey Goodness]

Hey, thanks for the shoutout!
You do have a slight advantage of having been around for at least 10 years longer than we've been in existence, plus a much larger player base. We're just a small community server that has a devoted player base that we do our best to listen to. TF2 is still very much active and alive and there are plenty of players to go around and plenty of communities for people to join. Best of luck to you and yours.

 

[argh]

Are you guys serious? I never bought into the whole "skial has bad mods" narrative but this whole chain of events is shameful.

You should have announced back on Mar 24 when the server went back to 32 that this was a temporary change. You also should have announced the initial change in the first place when it went to 40 the first time, and when you made the unannounced change last night.

If you always knew US PAYLOAD+ was going to remain at 40, you should have SAID SO and closed this thread.

Bottiger, this reeks of you pulling a bait and switch; changing the server back to 32 then reverting to 40 two months later, fleecing me and everyone else who spoke out against this of donations we wouldn't have made if we knew that change wasn't permanent.

Over the course of writing this I thought about filing a chargeback for my donation. I've decided not to burn that particular bridge yet, but I'm done contributing.

 

[Bottiger]

You should have announced back on Mar 24 when the server went back to 32 that this was a temporary change. You also should have announced the initial change in the first place when it went to 40 the first time, and when you made the unannounced change last night.

Please point out where anyone said it was going to be temporary or permanent. We tried 32 slots, the population didn't improve, and was in fact getting worse.

I'd also like to point out the terms of service you agreed to.

I have setup a 32 slot payload server in NY here. Maybe the few people from NA and EU that can't tolerate 40 slots will be enough to fill it.

91.216.250.50:27015

You do have a slight advantage of having been around for at least 10 years longer than we've been in existence, plus a much larger player base.

Please don't pretend that makes any difference at all when the entire payload playerbase we had was you and poomba, and all the sheep that followed. We started our payload servers back from 0 players since everyone left with you and poomba. Our entire payload playerbase is newer than yours.

Your community is also what, like 5 or 6 years old now?

 

[argh]

Please point out where anyone said it was going to be temporary or permanent.

That's my point; there's been no word from you or any admins about planned or implemented changes being made to the server.

If you had announced ahead of time, "We're losing players, we're trying 40 slots for two months to boost the player count" you probably would have avoided all this negativity, given time for discussion and helped the server acclimate to the change.

I don't think it's much of an ask for Skial to be more open and transparent about these things; you were quick to flood chat every 5 minutes with "To disable duel spam type cl_notifications_show_ingame 0 in your console" when that was happening.

 

[Bottiger]

That's my point; there's been no word from you or any admins about planned or implemented changes being made to the server.

This is also my point. If no word has been mentioned, then why is it reasonable to assume that it would be permanent?

And we didn't say it was going to be permanent or temporary precisely because we don't know. We will never commit to keeping things the same until the server completely drops to 0 players.

This is also why this is in here.

If you had announced ahead of time, "We're losing players, we're trying 40 slots for two months to boost the player count" you probably would have avoided all this negativity, given time for discussion and helped the server acclimate to the change.

It's already been discussed repeatedly here that this is to keep the server alive.

Anyone that paid attention would have figured it out on their own like this. It's only the people who just login for 1 hour after work that are completely oblivious.

https://www.skial.com/threads/are-most-32-player-servers-besides-payload-us-dying.122913/

 

[Oprah Of Flamey Goodness]

Please point out where anyone said it was going to be temporary or permanent. We tried 32 slots, the population didn't improve, and was in fact getting worse.

I'd also like to point out the terms of service you agreed to.



I have setup a 32 slot payload server in NY here. Maybe the few people from NA and EU that can't tolerate 40 slots will be enough to fill it.

91.216.250.50:27015



Please don't pretend that makes any difference at all when the entire payload playerbase we had was you and poomba, and all the sheep that followed. We started our payload servers back from 0 players since everyone left with you and poomba. Our entire payload playerbase is newer than yours.

Your community is also what, like 5 or 6 years old now?

We are 6 years old, thanks for asking. And age does make a difference since you've had much longer to establish a name (good for you!), and Skial has a larger population and name recognition is important. Also, please do not call your players, current or former, sheep. Being demeaning to the player base serves no one. In addition, saying you started from 0 after we split off is disingenuous at best. You have a lot of players from that time that still play on your servers (Poomba being an excellent example).
I have no dog in your fight between 32 vs 40 players however. You do what you feel is best for your servers.

 

[Bottiger]

We were at 0 players for many months after you and Poomba convinced the few remaining players we had to leave.

Poomba only returned to our servers a few years ago after our servers had recovered without his help.

At some point age doesn't matter. 6 years is already long enough that everyone that plays community payload already knows that you exist. The excuse that we have more players because we're older and always had more players, that is completely wrong, especially in this situation where you took every payload player we had.... and yet some of them still returned.

 

[Jeffel]

Please point out where anyone said it was going to be temporary or permanent. We tried 32 slots, the population didn't improve, and was in fact getting worse.

I'd also like to point out the terms of service you agreed to.



I have setup a 32 slot payload server in NY here. Maybe the few people from NA and EU that can't tolerate 40 slots will be enough to fill it.

91.216.250.50:27015



Please don't pretend that makes any difference at all when the entire payload playerbase we had was you and poomba, and all the sheep that followed. We started our payload servers back from 0 players since everyone left with you and poomba. Our entire payload playerbase is newer than yours.

Your community is also what, like 5 or 6 years old now?

If you want your 40 player server so badly, make THAT the new one. Quit it with this bullshit dark pattern of making us do your work. Leave the server we have bookmarked alone and make the new one if you think that actually has a preference. Don't sabotage the community and whip us into action. Because the action I want to take is to leave and bring as many as I can with me. It's your job to make a new preference populated if you believe there's an audience for it, not ours.

If you're going to make a 32 player server, make it the ones we already had, and make the new ones 40. If the new format is actually preferred, then those should fill up so much faster if that's the thing you're actually seeing a preference for. Otherwise, you're adding a gimmick onto something and torturing the people that WANT to stay to bootstrap your little test.

 

[argh]

This is also my point. If no word has been mentioned, then why is it reasonable to assume that it would be permanent?

And we didn't say it was going to be permanent or temporary precisely because we don't know. We will never commit to keeping things the same until the server completely drops to 0 players.

I'm not asking you commit to keeping things the same, just communication when you make a significant change.

This is also why this is in here.


It's already been discussed repeatedly here that this is to keep the server alive.

Anyone that paid attention would have figured it out on their own like this. It's only the people who just login for 1 hour after work that are completely oblivious.

https://www.skial.com/threads/are-most-32-player-servers-besides-payload-us-dying.122913/

It's only been discussed AFTER you made the change. That link is from May 3rd, literally 50 days after Payload went 40 slot.

You know what is still up? TF2 slot increase frequently asked questions, in News.

Will you put this on other servers like 2fort or dustbowl?
We will probably not put this on vanilla game modes. Extra slot players do not get lag compensation and the kill feed is a key part of vanilla game play.

When will you put this on other servers?
We will be keeping it on 1 server until we are satisfied with the stability.

This is the last public announcement I can find referencing increasing slots in Vanilla servers. Is this still true? I don't know anymore and I have been paying attention.

 

[Bottiger]

If the new format is actually preferred, then those should fill up so much faster if that's the thing you're actually seeing a preference for.

There's numerous evidence showing that it is preferred and I mentioned them multiple times. You just keep ignoring it.

• A new community went from 0 to filling up daily just by having 40 slot payload.
• All 24 and 32 slot servers have been losing players while 64 slot servers remained the same or grew.
• We changed both EU and US payload servers to 40 slots, they both gained players. The EU one gained more than 25%, so even if you argue that people are just joining because there's more room, that is wrong because it gained more players than the slots increased by.
• 40 slot dustbowl is doing better than 32 slot payload.
• Then we changed US back to 32 slots, and it is languishing while EU is still doing well. If people were so eager for 32 slots, shouldn't they be joining the US server and making it fuller?

I agree that making a brand new server nowadays is likely to fail. The global TF2 population has shrunk 40% compared to last year.

But I've already provided plenty of evidence showing that 40 slots is more popular, so the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. Since one of you was able to get everyone from the 40 slot server to move to 32 slots for an hour for 2 days, why can't you just keep doing that?

We've never explicitly or implicitly suggested that we would keep all servers with the same settings forever. In fact it's the opposite as I showed many times from our terms of service. We change servers before they hit 0 players. If you wait that long, the server is probably gone for good.

 

[Jeffel]

There's numerous evidence showing that it is preferred and I mentioned them multiple times. You just keep ignoring it.

• A new community went from 0 to filling up daily just by having 40 slot payload.
• All 24 and 32 slot servers have been losing players while 64 slot servers remained the same or grew.
• We changed both EU and US payload servers to 40 slots, they both gained players. The EU one gained more than 25%, so even if you argue that people are just joining because there's more room, that is wrong because it gained more players than the slots increased by.
• 40 slot dustbowl is doing better than 32 slot payload.
• Then we changed US back to 32 slots, and it is languishing while EU is still doing well. If people were so eager for 32 slots, shouldn't they be joining the US server and making it fuller?

I agree that making a brand new server nowadays is likely to fail. The global TF2 population has shrunk 40% compared to last year.

But I've already provided plenty of evidence showing that 40 slots is more popular, so the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. Since one of you was able to get everyone from the 40 slot server to move to 32 slots for an hour for 2 days, why can't you just keep doing that?

We've never explicitly or implicitly suggested that we would keep all servers with the same settings forever. In fact it's the opposite as I showed many times from our terms of service. We change servers before they hit 0 players. If you wait that long, the server is probably gone for good.

Asking EU people to play with a bad ping is like asking US people to play with a bad ping. That's just not a fair correlation to be making at all. Why would people ever have a preference for poor networking performance no matter the slot count? That is a whole different regional issue. And sure, many folks do, the exceptions who stray outside of normal hours for their regions. That is not the norm, and I don't see why it ever would reasonably be believed to be normal. This whiplash is just stabbing the community you do have harder and hurting the chances of a stable 32 player anyway. I really, really, do not have it in me to do work for your success. Not a chance at this point, and why should anyone? You're sabotaging the 32 player servers and bootstrapping the regulars to do your 40 player thing.

If you make the originals 32 and try out your 0 to 40 player new server idea, I'd contemplate working hard to keep the 32 populated. I'd even apply for admin to help quell the concerns folks have about how rules are being applied and the representation they have. Though, I'm not sure how far that would get given the process and my lack of report history. I have a job and communities and hobbies to run on my own, too.

 

[Bottiger]

Asking EU people to play with a bad ping is like asking US people to play with a bad ping. That's just not a fair correlation to be making at all.

How convenient it is that you just attack the 1 point you think you have a chance at winning and just ignore the rest.

Right now it's 2 am in Paris and there are 4 EU players on the US server. During peak EU hours this could be many multiples higher, but the server had 0 players during that time.

If you make the originals 32 and try out your 0 to 40 player new server idea, I'd contemplate working hard to keep the 32 populated.

Why didn't you keep it filled when it was at 32 slots then?

The evidence clearly shows that 40 slots is more popular without having to do this experiment. We all know that making a new server in this environment will probably fail no matter what the settings are.

 

[D_Ink]

"so the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. Since one of you was able to get everyone from the 40 slot server to move to 32 slots for an hour for 2 days, why can't you just keep doing that?"

you never did explain why the 32 server was put up so stealthily and how you expected anyone to know it existed, or why it didn't have seed bots at the time like US did.
"Why can't we just keep doing that?"...because..chat moves fast, not many players trust things such as 'go to this server..' some players got muted for 'spamming' the link to the other server, and also, we dont work for you to publicise your servers.
Still, the main question is, why such little communication and zero effort to let anyone know this server existed or to seed it?

 

[Bottiger]

you never did explain why the 32 server was put up so stealthily and how you expected anyone to know it existed, or why it didn't have seed bots at the time like US did.

I did explain it, and I said it multiple times. You guys just keep ignoring vast portions of what I say.

I didn't advertise it because our chat advertisements basically do nothing now, same with the forums. Take a look at all the people posting here and see how many of them are only here because they have something to complain about.

If that guy managed to get everyone to join the 32 slot server for 1-2 hours for 2 days in a row, he clearly didn't need any help.

And I removed the bots because people were saying it didn't fill because people don't want to play with bots, so I did that so they could see for themselves that it didn't make a difference.

 

[Bottiger]

I have setup a 32 slot payload server in NY here which should be acceptable to a large portion of EU users.

91.216.250.50:27015

This is the best compromise I can do. We have a 32 slot 2fort server probably made up of refugees who don't like 64 slot 2fort.

Maybe there are just enough similarly minded people from both continents to fill this 1 server.

 

[D_Ink]

"Take a look at all the people posting here and see how many of them are only here because they have something to complain about."

There are at least 46 individuals "complaining" on this thread, that's equivalent to a server full.

What other reason would there be to post here apart from feed back for an issue?? You want some funny memes?

Don't know what the "one guy" for "one hour" is that you keep repeating, that is not how things happened at all.

Edit: thanks for letting us know about new server, guess we'll see how it goes...