Approved #MakeVSHGreatAgain Part 2: RED Nerfs

[mub]

Last time VSH saw an overhaul, Hale's side got buffs.
We went from a 10% Hale win rate to a ~35% Hale win rate.

While this was a great step, I believe getting it a bit higher would increase player retention, longevity of the gamemode, and make rounds overall a lot more interesting, tense and fun.

Instead of being "who can get the most damage this round?: the game", I would like to see a balance more akin to vsh1. I don't believe we'd ever reach vsh1's level of Hale win% (>75%), but I believe somewhere around a 50/50 balance or better for Hale would be feasible.

There's not much more we could do for Saxton without making him crazy strong in the hands of the veterans, so the only step left is to tone down RED; namely, addressing a lot of the power creep that VSH has seen over the years to the mercs, specifically the DPS meta loadouts/weapons. I understand that nobody's going to like their favorite class(es) getting nerfed, but there isn't any other options left.

General
Nerf goomba damage by 35%. (1530 MAX -> 990 MAX)
(For the calc, this would change 2%+450 -> 1%+450)
Being able to get near-backstab damage with any class cheapens burst damage as a whole.

Hale
Remove mobility vulnerability (the double damage for jumping mechanic.)
It's too easy to land shots on Hales who land early or mess up their jump-- and gets extremely punishing when individual players can deal out 1000-2000 during the vulnerability window with Huntsman, Iron Bomber, Direct Hit, etc. Good Hales are able to stay in the air long enough to cancel out the vulnerability and/or weighdown after. This mechanic usually just ends up punishing crouchjumpers/newer Hales, who jump straight up and down and are incredibly easy to aim at.

Scout
BFB changes; change +25% damage to -25% damage.
Scout becomes an insane mobile burst damage dealer with this weapon-- an insanely powerful primary that tends to grossly overshadow the others. Scout was never meant to be able to get backstab-type DPS in this gamemode.

Soldier
Nerf market gardener from 3% (1700 MAX) to 2% (1200 MAX).
Soldier was never meant to be a %DPS, and having 10+ soldiers on maps like Minegay, Military etc. make the Trolldiering extremely powerful.
Remove rocket specialist.
Being able to stop a Hale dead in his tracks just by shooting him is an extremely powerful tech that nobody else has. Being a mobile DPS on top of this exacerbates the issue.

Demoman
Iron Bomber changes; reduce damage by 33%.
So long as the projectile hitbox for this weapon is still "broken", this specific grenade launcher overshadows the rest in terms of ease of damage. Reducing its damage will reduce the effectiveness of Demoman's DPS across the board and more appropriately reward those with better aim, should they hit more consistently with the IB, or pick up the Stock/LnL.

Medic
Remove +50% damage bonus on Crusader's Crossbow.
This mechanic just makes Medic capable of strong DPS on top of healing+uber (~337->~220 damage per shot.)

Sniper
Remove +50% damage bonus on Huntsman.
Being able to dish out 465 damage consistently makes this weapon overshadow rifles quite a bit. Toning back down to 310 should take the edge off this weapon.
Increase Sniper Climb damage 15 -> 25.
Sniper's mobility being able to outmaneuver Hales and stall for time or/for RED to catch up is incredibly strong. This nerf will ensure that Sniper Climb is only used sparingly as a last resort or for reaching sniping spots.

Spy
Remove Kunai overheal mod.
Kunai is borderline OP because it can allow a Spy to tank a hit after a stab (and even dead ring right after if it's direct), seen basically as a direct upgrade to the stock knife. VSH2 currently awards Spy with a max overheal HP of 250 after a stab, which is a vsh-specific buff; Kunai Spy in vanilla TF2 gets a max overheal HP of 210, which will not allow a dead ring right after tanking a hit, as well as making the window for tanking a hit a lot tighter.

 

[Stopwatch]

+1

This changelog has been on the drawing board for a while and was a semi-collaberative effort between many Skial VSH regulars behind the scenes. I agree with almost all of the changes suggested, and I feel like it would be worth testing them out.

 

[Syrup Sauce]

+1

These changes seem fair and balanced. Would greatly help with evening the odds between the mercs and hale.

 

[Miles Kilo]

+1 but what about the backscatter though it can give scouts crits when taunting and with the crit o cola and when he is one of the last 2
Well one of the last 2 isn't too bad but what about taunting= free high damage or crit o cola free 1500-2k damage. I agree with everything else though
Edit: and loose cannon demos that abuse vents to delay

 

[mub]

+1 but what about the backscatter though it can give scouts crits when taunting and with the crit o cola and when he is one of the last 2
Well one of the last 2 isn't too bad but what about taunting= free high damage or crit o cola free 1500-2k damage. I agree with everything else though

The DPS with the Backscatter isn't anywhere near as high as the BFB, so I left it alone. Minicrits from taunting only gives +35% damage, so I decided to leave it off this list as well.

 

[Miles Kilo]

The DPS with the Backscatter isn't anywhere near as high as the BFB, so I left it alone. Minicrits from taunting only gives +35% damage, so I decided to leave it off this list as well.

Alright what about loose Cannons and vents I edited it on my last message so you didn't get to see it

 

[Miles Kilo]

The DPS with the Backscatter isn't anywhere near as high as the BFB, so I left it alone. Minicrits from taunting only gives +35% damage, so I decided to leave it off this list as well.

Also taunting gives CRITS to backscatter not mini crits

 

[mub]

Alright what about loose Cannons and vents I edited it on my last message so you didn't get to see it

Also taunting gives CRITS to backscatter not mini crits

I don't often see these ever being issues on VSH as it stands currently, but if it is possible, I would support Hale taking 0% knockback whenever he's crouched.
Backscatter does give full crits whenever it should minicrit, just like Direct Hit. However, I don't see either of those weapons doing substantial damage during rounds, especially compared to their meta counterparts, BFB and Trolldiering.

 

[Miles Kilo]

I don't often see these ever being issues on VSH as it stands currently, but if it is possible, I would support Hale taking 0% knockback whenever he's crouched.
Backscatter does give full crits whenever it should minicrit, just like Direct Hit. However, I don't see either of those weapons doing substantial damage during rounds, especially compared to their meta counterparts, BFB and Trolldiering.

Actually that's a good idea for a thread I'm gonna go make one about the knockback

 

[mub]

Demoman
Iron Bomber changes; reduce damage by 33%.
So long as the projectile hitbox for this weapon is still "broken", this specific grenade launcher overshadows the rest in terms of ease of damage. Reducing its damage will reduce the effectiveness of Demoman's DPS across the board and more appropriately reward those with better aim, should they hit more consistently with the IB, or pick up the Stock/LnL.

I forgot to clarify that this weapon is also meta due to its ability to provide good mobility via pilljumping; LC takes a lot more health to blast jump, LnL can't do it, and stock takes longer to detonate, and rolls.

 

[True Darkian]

Stomp nerf:

• -1
• Stomps are hard to perform and should be rewarded, making them do little damage would discourage people to try to stomp the hale.

Hale movement:

• -0.5
• This was to prevent superjump spam, it could be reduced to +50% more damage instead of +100%, overall this is a good feature.

Scout BFB:

• -1
• This weapon already sucks right now, barely anyone uses it, and those who use it die really fast because of the movement speed reduction, lowering damage would completely trash this weapon.

Soldier Market Gardener:

• -1
• Like the stomp, this is rewarding, a good hale knows how to prevent being market gardened, who is going to market garden if it barely does any damage? The damage already feels low right now.

Soldier Rocket Specialist:

• +0.5
• I have no problem seeing this dissapear, but this should be compensated with a small damage bonus for all rocket launchers to make up for the loss of direct hit damage.

Demoman Iron Bomber:

• -1
• Nobody uses this right now, and if they do, they die easily because the Loose Cannon is litteraly meta for non-demoknights in VSH.

Medic Crusader's Crossbow:

• +1
• Yeah, this one is ridiculous.

Sniper Huntsman:

• +1
• Way too powerful right now yep, I haven't touched normal sniper rifles in ages now in VSH.

Sniper Climbing:

• -1
• Not much is wrong with snipers climbing right now, good hales know how to get around this.

Spy Kunai:

• +0
• Not a Kunai user, but this one is annoying to play against, but lets not make the weapon useless here.
• What about it reduces the max health to the point it cannot survive a dead ringer hit, forcing Spies to backstab the hale to stay alive, but if they do, they get their tanky health.

 

[Dragontamer]

Sniper should only take 25 damage when wielding the cozy camper and razorback. On top of that, the cozy camper should reduce fall damage for him. SMG crits should be removed and instead have mini crits, maybe more ammo.

-1 to the kunai nerf. It's the le'tranger that makes spies super hard to kill since it grants him 15% cloak on hit, which allows for them to easily recharge their dead ringer again. A nerf on that would be better. Perhaps bring back the big earner speed boost too.

Crusaders crossbow shouldn't have it's damage removed, instead it shouldn't be able to reload while not active.

+1 to the huntsman nerf

Rocket specialist is fine. The liberty launcher just needs its faster projectile boost removed so it's a lot harder to land airshots.

And finally, the mobility vulnerability should only be removed for sniper if possible, since it's much easier for them to hit hale.

 

[mub]

...

Everything you said that you didn't mark +1 are huge issues in VSH US. For example, I don't know how nobody is using BFB where you are, Scouts are getting top damage with this weapon in VSH US, dealing 1500+ damage in the span of 5 seconds. Same for IB Hybridknights; you land all four pills after a jump and that's 2400 damage.

 

[mub]

Sniper should only take 25 damage when wielding the cozy camper and razorback. On top of that, the cozy camper should reduce fall damage for him. SMG crits should be removed and instead have mini crits, maybe more ammo.

-1 to the kunai nerf. It's the le'tranger that makes spies super hard to kill since it grants him 15% cloak on hit, which allows for them to easily recharge their dead ringer again. A nerf on that would be better. Perhaps bring back the big earner speed boost too.

Crusaders crossbow shouldn't have it's damage removed, instead it shouldn't be able to reload while not active.

+1 to the huntsman nerf

Rocket specialist is fine. The liberty launcher just needs its faster projectile boost removed so it's a lot harder to land airshots.

And finally, the mobility vulnerability should only be removed for sniper if possible, since it's much easier for them to hit hale.

L'Etranger could also alternatively get toned down, but Kunai spies being able to play aggressive against Hales with tank overheal is problematic, no?
Dragontamer, if the speed boost on hit doesn't work, report it, since it should be in the game (https://www.skial.com/threads/vsh-ff2-give-big-earner-back-its-speed-boost-on-hit.88127/#post-802260) since it was approved.

Crusader's crossbow likely cannot have the reload changed as this is hardcoded to vanilla mechanics.
The rocket specialist and mobility vulnerability suggestions you made do not address the original reasoning.
RS can be abused with any rocket launcher (especially air strike) and the vulnerability gets very easily abused by almost every class.

 

[Dragontamer]

Didn't realize the big earner speed boost was approved.

At the very least, vulnerability should be kept on vagineer. Perhaps RS as well considering his swing speed from rage is crazy fast.

 

[mub]

Didn't realize the big earner speed boost was approved.

At the very least, vulnerability should be kept on vagineer. Perhaps RS as well considering his swing speed from rage is crazy fast.

I wouldn't mind giving Vagineer some sort of nerf, not sure if we could code specifically for this though. If these changes go through and raise the win rates of all the Hales, I'm sure we could far more easily tweak and nerf certain aspects like just removing Vagineer Haste altogether. Hales had specific knockback modifiers and health modifiers depending on who they were, something else we could consider.

 

[thehowl5657]

General
Nerf goomba damage by 35%. (1530 MAX -> 990 MAX)
(For the calc, this would change 2%+450 -> 1%+450)
Being able to get near-backstab damage with any class cheapens burst damage as a whole.

No comment here.

Hale
Remove mobility vulnerability (the double damage for jumping mechanic.)
It's too easy to land shots on Hales who land early or mess up their jump-- and gets extremely punishing when individual players can deal out 1000-2000 during the vulnerability window with Huntsman, Iron Bomber, Direct Hit, etc. Good Hales are able to stay in the air long enough to cancel out the vulnerability and/or weighdown after. This mechanic usually just ends up punishing crouchjumpers/newer Hales, who jump straight up and down and are incredibly easy to aim at.

Definitely a change for the better. While it felt extremely satisfying to land a 900 damage headshot on a hale as an average player, above average players could easily abuse this mechanic for damage they otherwise shouldn't have.

Scout
BFB changes; change +25% damage to -25% damage.
Scout becomes an insane mobile burst damage dealer with this weapon-- an insanely powerful primary that tends to grossly overshadow the others. Scout was never meant to be able to get backstab-type DPS in this gamemode.

I agree with this change, I would love to be able to use other scatterguns but unfortunately the meta dictates me to use the BFB if I want to get any reasonable damage output. Scout is already hard enough to kill, he shouldn't also be a class that can easily reach top damage on the team.

Soldier
Nerf market gardener from 3% (1700 MAX) to 2% (1200 MAX).
Soldier was never meant to be a %DPS, and having 10+ soldiers on maps like Minegay, Military etc. make the Trolldiering extremely powerful.
Remove rocket specialist.
Being able to stop a Hale dead in his tracks just by shooting him is an extremely powerful tech that nobody else has. Being a mobile DPS on top of this exacerbates the issue.

+1 for this in every way possible. I'm sure most of you are aware of some certain trolldiers who can make life an absolute living hell for hale with their market garden spam, the fact that they can just stop me dead in my tracks by doing something as simple as landing a rocket on me is already broken enough. Hale should not have to deal with any other rediculous factors when trying to chase down trolldiers.

Demoman
Iron Bomber changes; reduce damage by 33%.
So long as the projectile hitbox for this weapon is still "broken", this specific grenade launcher overshadows the rest in terms of ease of damage. Reducing its damage will reduce the effectiveness of Demoman's DPS across the board and more appropriately reward those with better aim, should they hit more consistently with the IB, or pick up the Stock/LnL.

I'm absolutely for this change, I'm not a fan that because the weapon is broken that it has become the meta, it's just not fun to play against when you have the skills to dodge normal pills but get hit by iron bomber pills because the demo is abusing a broken weapon.

Medic
Remove +50% damage bonus on Crusader's Crossbow.
This mechanic just makes Medic capable of strong DPS on top of healing+uber (~337->~220 damage per shot.)

I'm personally against this as a medic main, as it is already difficult enough for many medics to land a shot on hale, let alone even their teammates. Landing the occasional hit on hale should be as rewarding as it is right now.

Sniper
Remove +50% damage bonus on Huntsman.
Being able to dish out 465 damage consistently makes this weapon overshadow rifles quite a bit. Toning back down to 310 should take the edge off this weapon.
Increase Sniper Climb damage 15 -> 25.
Sniper's mobility being able to outmaneuver Hales and stall for time or/for RED to catch up is incredibly strong. This nerf will ensure that Sniper Climb is only used sparingly as a last resort or for reaching sniping spots.

I don't have an issue with the huntsman changes as I don't use the weapon unless I am attempting to stunlock as my aim is atrocious with the thing. As for the climbing damage buff, I also dont have that big an issue as my main secondary is the cozy camper.

Spy
Remove Kunai overheal mod.
Kunai is borderline OP because it can allow a Spy to tank a hit after a stab (and even dead ring right after if it's direct), seen basically as a direct upgrade to the stock knife. VSH2 currently awards Spy with a max overheal HP of 250 after a stab, which is a vsh-specific buff; Kunai Spy in vanilla TF2 gets a max overheal HP of 210, which will not allow a dead ring right after tanking a hit, as well as making the window for tanking a hit a lot tighter.

While it absolutely would be a massive nerf, it really is a necessary one. It is already extremely infuriating enough trying to kill dead ringer spies, and being able to tank a non dead ringered hit is just absurdly broken and unfair to fight against. Spy is already risky enough as it is, being forced to remain in melee range to be able to deal burst DPS. The only reward for stabbing hale should be the damage and the uber, not enough health to be able to tank a normal hit.

I am absolutely fine with Red getting a massive hit towards their effectiveness, in most cases when hale is not a regular they just get absolutely destroyed by the regular players abusing broken and overpowered gimmicks. If this change is able to give less incentive to the blatant damage whoring for rank that is the current meta, I am all for it.

+1

 

[Dragontamer]

Something else I'd like to mention is the removal of crouch superjump. I crouch jump a lot as hale and it's infuriating when I end up wasting a superjump+taking massive damage because the game decides that I superjump from crouching. M2 jumping is superior anyway.

 

[Miles Kilo]

Something else I'd like to mention is the removal of crouch superjump. I crouch jump a lot as hale and it's infuriating when I end up wasting a superjump+taking massive damage because the game decides that I superjump from crouching. M2 jumping is superior anyway.

Agreed I also get that problem and it's also to prevent newer from doing it and learning about m2 faster

 

[Stack Man]

+1 to everything but MG nerf >:(