Declined Nerf vsh_rats_office

[Dolan Trump]

There's a very annoying strategy on this map where an Engineer can build inside a shelf (usually the middle one) and the sentry gun is almost impossible to destroy for most bosses without a sheer amount of luck, even with rage. I've seen several people struggle with trying to destroy such nests, and I was in such a position myself and was forced to win the match by capping. And, of course, if all surviving players are camped there, they can stall until the end of the match timer, which is really annoying for waiting players. The only reliable counter is to kill all the Engineers right at the start, which of course is not always possible.

I believe this strategy ought to be nerfed by adding nobuild to all shelves across the map except the bottom ones (which are easier to reach) to prevent win-conditions for Engineers. Again, the strategy is unfair against Hale and encourages stalling.

 

[Cream Tea]

There's a very annoying strategy on this map where an Engineer can build inside a shelf (usually the middle one) and the sentry gun is almost impossible to destroy for most bosses without a sheer amount of luck, even with rage. I've seen several people struggle with trying to destroy such nests, and I was in such a position myself and was forced to win the match by capping. And, of course, if all surviving players are camped there, they can stall until the end of the match timer, which is really annoying for waiting players. The only reliable counter is to kill all the Engineers right at the start, which of course is not always possible.

I believe this strategy ought to be nerfed by adding nobuild to all shelves across the map except the bottom ones (which are easier to reach) to prevent win-conditions for Engineers. Again, the strategy is unfair against Hale and encourages stalling.

I almost agree with you, however there is one thing I must ask, what's wrong with capping? Isn't that what capping is for?

 

[Dolan Trump]

I almost agree with you, however there is one thing I must ask, what's wrong with capping? Isn't that what capping is for?

Well, yeah, but it's generally frowned upon. I got a ton of boos for doing it and only did it out of desperation. The other players didn't really count it as a loss, since I was down to about 300 health and would have lost otherwise.

Also, for this reason, a lot of people just stubbornly refuse to cap even if they can't win, making it annoying for waiting players. Thus, it's not that I don't oppose capping, but Hale shouldn't ever be forced to do it. Finally, the cap only opens at 2 surviving players, so if 3 or more players including the Engineer are camped there Hale has no choice but to try and take them on.

 

[mike-kirby]

+1, that's one of the cheapest yet very rewarding strategy. Hales that actually get inbetween the shelves get pushed of by the sentry or helping teammate before they can attack twice. And when hale's off, the engi has more than enough time to repair the builings.
I'd rather have the space tightend than having nobuild, so even heavies and other heavy hitters can't do the same.

 

[Renegade]

-1

If the only reason you want the map nerfed is because you were "forced" to cap, then no. There's nothing wrong with capping. And if people stubbornly refuse to cap, blame them for it. It's a game mechanic. If anything, the cap limit should be increased for that map so that if they are camping up there with a sentry nest, Hale can just cap instead of wasting time. It's like people who complain about rage. It's there for a reason.

 

[mike-kirby]

-1

If the only reason you want the map nerfed is because you were "forced" to cap, then no. There's nothing wrong with capping. And if people stubbornly refuse to cap, blame them for it. It's a game mechanic. If anything, the cap limit should be increased for that map so that if they are camping up there with a sentry nest, Hale can just cap instead of wasting time. It's like people who complain about rage. It's there for a reason.

The reason for a cap is for when hale has trouble killing the left over enemies, even with the use of rage. People should not be forced to cap because of a spot that's impossible to get into.
What if, let's say, 10 people just camp in such a spot. That would mean hale won't be able to kill those 10 players. Would this mean the cap limit should be increased to 10 or even 31 because "if hale can't kill them he can always cap".

 

[Meowcenary]

That spot is certainly possible to get into but it can be tricky. Most people don't seem to know how to get in tho

I think for the sake of everybody else its worth fixing because it just drags out rounds. So many people refuse to cap because they don't want to be judged by the occasional 12 year old screaming "omg cap noob kys" so we get to enjoy hales failing to get in there until the round stalemates

 

[KinCryos]

So many people refuse to cap because they don't want to be judged by the occasional 12 year old screaming "omg cap noob kys" so we get to enjoy hales failing to get in there until the round stalemates

as an aside, what would happen if the plugin were configured so that a time-up means Hale wins? or that survivors of a stalemate get some sort of penalty such as fewer queue points or reduced health on the next round?

 

[Meowcenary]

as an aside, what would happen if the plugin were configured so that a time-up means Hale wins? or that survivors of a stalemate get some sort of penalty such as fewer queue points or reduced health on the next round?

I assume the loss of queue points would cause issues in circumstances where time is running out but someone is actively trying to kill hale

And hale automatically winning on a stalemate, I'm not sure if it would do much to encourage people coming out of hiding. Might be worth a shot tho

 

[mike-kirby]

as an aside, what would happen if the plugin were configured so that a time-up means Hale wins? or that survivors of a stalemate get some sort of penalty such as fewer queue points or reduced health on the next round?

Less qpoints probably doesn't do anything. If hale wins when the time's up, maybe it would help but you might get more problems like a fleeing hale. And what do you mean with reduced health. Less max health or reduced starting health (not changing the max health)?

 

[Chance]

Well, yeah, but it's generally frowned upon. I got a ton of boos for doing it and only did it out of desperation. The other players didn't really count it as a loss, since I was down to about 300 health and would have lost otherwise.

Also, for this reason, a lot of people just stubbornly refuse to cap even if they can't win, making it annoying for waiting players. Thus, it's not that I don't oppose capping, but Hale shouldn't ever be forced to do it. Finally, the cap only opens at 2 surviving players, so if 3 or more players including the Engineer are camped there Hale has no choice but to try and take them on.

The other players can go fuck themselves, capping is the funnest things to do because of how salty they get over it.

 

[KinCryos]

Less qpoints probably doesn't do anything. If hale wins when the time's up, maybe it would help but you might get more problems like a fleeing hale. And what do you mean with reduced health. Less max health or reduced starting health (not changing the max health)?

for the health, I was thinking less starting health without changing the max health
the 'fleeing Hale' problem could be solved with a cheap premise: "can your team kill Hale in the allotted time?"
fuck that. I have a better idea: at time-up, the plugin evaluates the mercs who are still alive compared to when the round started. if X of Y mercs are still alive and X/Y > Hale's current health percentage, the mercs win. if Hale's health percentage exceeds the percentage of survivors, Hale wins. if it's still a tie, the plugin kills everybody

 

[mike-kirby]

the 'fleeing Hale' problem could be solved with a cheap premise: "can your team kill Hale in the allotted time?"
as for the health, I was thinking less starting health without changing the max health

But it's also hales job to kill the opposing team.
And with a medic like me the less starting hp wouldn't do anything. A well knowing medic knows that the amputator is the strongest medic melee in vsh, and taunting would provide enough recovery to nullify the penalty.

 

[Renegade]

The reason for a cap is for when hale has trouble killing the left over enemies, even with the use of rage. People should not be forced to cap because of a spot that's impossible to get into.
What if, let's say, 10 people just camp in such a spot. That would mean hale won't be able to kill those 10 players. Would this mean the cap limit should be increased to 10 or even 31 because "if hale can't kill them he can always cap".

People can choose to cap if they want. Why is it such a bad thing if they cap or rage?

 

[mike-kirby]

People can choose to cap if they want. Why is it such a bad thing if they cap or rage?

It's not that bad but they shouldn't be forced to

 

[Renegade]

It's a game mechanic. It's in there for a reason. If people are making others feel bad for using a game mechanic, then they're idiots.

 

[mike-kirby]

It's a game mechanic. It's in there for a reason. If people are making others feel bad for using a game mechanic, then they're idiots.

Rage is a game mechanic, some don't use it. They're not forced to use it and yet some do win. Even punching, a friend of mine didn't punch anyone yet won, because he goomba'd everyone. He wasn't forced to attack people. This sounds a bit odd, yes, but what I mean with this is that none of these forces you to use it and offers a different way to do it.
To win the round you can either kill everyone, or cap the point. Since this spot 'disallows' the choice to kill everyone, you're forced to cap it.
And again what if there are more than 3 people alive.

 

[Renegade]

Okay so cap it then. The people that stay up there lose and then can cry about it for hours. I don't see the problem if it's deciding between capping or failing to kill those campers.