Why are viewmodels/first person animations no longer allowed through the mod verifier?

[Showin; Growin;]

The mod verifying system was a great workaround to the sv_pure thing. It has done a great job with it's blacklist and such but I've noticed recently that some viewmodel directories are blocked for some reason.

They most certainly weren't blocked before because I've had viewmodel mods verified before. Every now and then I update them myself and verify them but they aren't allowed anymore.

I don't see any reason for them to be blacklisted so I would like to know why said directories were blacklisted.

Thanks.

 

[Bottiger]

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=23197

• Removed custom animations from the sv_pure whitelist because it was being exploited

 

[Showin; Growin;]

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=23197

It seems like those exploits were merely people removing viewmodels entirely with it. Any other rumors have been dis proven.

In my opinion they seem ok to allow if that just so happens to be the "exploit".

With that said, I can't do anything to persuade you other than providing my general opinion on the topic. Thank you for letting me know why they're banned.

 

[Bottiger]

The way you remove viewmodels is by replacing them with a blank viewmodel. It is impossible for a program to detect if this is your intention because people would just make it slightly less transparent or thinner shapes, so the entire directory is blocked.

 

[Showin; Growin;]

The way you remove viewmodels is by replacing them with a blank viewmodel. It is impossible for a program to detect if this is your intention because people would just make it slightly less transparent or thinner shapes, so the entire directory is blocked.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid I'm still confused by why these directories are blocked. I still don't understand the reason to block it. People can still remove viewmodels entirely via the "r_drawviewmodel" command. If that's the case then I wouldn't exactly call it cheating if people did the same via modding. (Though there isn't much reason to do so with the command being 100% functional and a much better alternative to modding the game) I'm pretty sure said exploit really only applies to valves competitive servers because the "r_drawviewmodel" command is restricted on those servers.


Could you elaborate on why it's exploitable a bit more?

 

[KinCryos]

it was Valve's decision. you'll have to ask them

 

[Bottiger]

I'm sorry but I'm afraid I'm still confused by why these directories are blocked. I still don't understand the reason to block it. People can still remove viewmodels entirely via the "r_drawviewmodel" command. If that's the case then I wouldn't exactly call it cheating if people did the same via modding.

I have no idea. I thought it was because of invisible viewmodels as someone explained to me. But I am sure Valve banned it for a good reason so you will have to ask them instead of us.

 

[Showin; Growin;]

I have no idea. I thought it was because of invisible viewmodels as someone explained to me. But I am sure Valve banned it for a good reason so you will have to ask them instead of us.

It is because of invisible viewmodels. These exploits only applied to competitive servers because viewmodels are forced in competitive. Valve removed them because these directories were being exploited to remove viewmodels in competitive.
They can't be exploited in casual play because the command is actually allowed on casual servers. The specific exploit can be found here.

Casual and Competitive servers share the same sv_pure whitelist. I guess it's easier for valve to remove it on all their servers instead of just applying these settings to competitive or maybe their doing it for the sack of consistency.

A well known modder called Paysus (who made most of the viewmodel animation mods) has made a detailed post about the issue here. The post has numerous reasons to explain why invisible viewmodels don't give any advantage to the player.

This whole situation was mainly because valve wants to force viewmodels in competitive. People found a way around it so they blocked the directories.

I just want to make sure everyone understands why this happened and hopefully convince you guys that viewmodels are safe to allow. With that said, I'm just trying to provide the information I'm currently aware of. Me and many other people have emailed valve about the issue but they seem to be very strict about forcing viewmodels in competitive.

Sorry to continuously bother you about this. I don't play on valve servers often (mostly due to sv_pure) and there aren't too many community servers with good playerbase like skial. So that's why I'm personally really bothered by this change.

 

[Maddo]

If you can edit viewmodel files, and there is no md5 check, what's to stop any animation / overlay being implemented? surely this can only lead to people creating custom cheats?

 

[Showin; Growin;]

If you can edit viewmodel files, and there is no md5 check, what's to stop any animation / overlay being implemented? surely this can only lead to people creating custom cheats?

I'm sorry, what? Are you referring to people modifying viewmodels to be transparent? I wouldn't exactly call that cheating. That's more of a matter of preference. Especially considering the command that disables viewmodels entirely. Besides I'm fairly certain those type of overlays can only be made through vmt files (with commands like $translucent) which are already detectable by the mod verifying part of the site.

 

[•Mr.Dr.Professor Toaster•]

custom animations are not exploitable on online servers, this was already discussed and debunked by paysus.

and besides r_drawviewmodel 0 exits to remove the viewmodels without mods.

 

[•Mr.Dr.Professor Toaster•]

I have no idea. I thought it was because of invisible viewmodels as someone explained to me. But I am sure Valve banned it for a good reason so you will have to ask them instead of us.

custom animations are not exploitable on online servers, this was already discussed and debunked by paysus.

 

[Meowcenary]

custom animations are not exploitable on online servers, this was already discussed and debunked by paysus.

You need to tell that to Valve then. Bottiger wasn't the one who removed the custom animations

 

[KinCryos]

custom animations are not exploitable on online servers, this was already discussed and debunked by paysus.

viewmodels can tell you when you can backstab as Spy. has it been proven that a custom viewmodel can't tell you when a rapid-fire random-crit weapon will crit? (for each rapid-fire random-crit weapon, a check is made once per second. if it passes, any and every shot made by that weapon in the next 2 seconds will be critical)

and besides r_drawviewmodel 0 exits to remove the viewmodels without mods.

not in competitive, that's why the invisible viewmodels existed in the first place. however, Valve made a compromise where you can switch to minimized viewmodels, as well as brought back the FOV slider which inversely affects the size of the viewmodel.

 

[•Mr.Dr.Professor Toaster•]

viewmodels can tell you when you can backstab as Spy. has it been proven that a custom viewmodel can't tell you when a rapid-fire random-crit weapon will crit? (for each rapid-fire random-crit weapon, a check is made once per second. if it passes, any and every shot made by that weapon in the next 2 seconds will be critical)

As far as I know that is impossible to do with the new c_model system that TF2 has been using for a while now, however the viewmodels don't tell you when you have a backstabb ready in TF2, the animation does, and you cannot crit hack with custom animations.

not in competitive, that's why the invisible viewmodels existed in the first place. however, Valve made a compromise where you can switch to minimized viewmodels, as well as brought back the FOV slider which inversely affects the size of the viewmodel.

You need to tell that to Valve then. Bottiger wasn't the one who removed the custom animations

Well are skial servers Valve owned competitive servers now?

 

[Bottiger]

As far as I know that is impossible to do with the new c_model system that TF2 has been using for a while now, however the viewmodels don't tell you when you have a backstabb ready in TF2, the animation does, and you cannot crit hack with custom animations.



Well are skial servers Valve owned competitive servers now?

If there is any way to cheat, people will do it.

And if we are able to block r_drawviewmodel, we would also like to have that on our servers.

According to Funke (top comment)

The reason hidden viewmodels are considered "advantageous" isn't because they're distracting, it's because they take up 1/4th of the screen (direct hit LITERALLY 1/4ths). removing it gives sight where you otherwise might not have it. "hidden viewmodels do not make streams ugly" no they don't but the provide frame by frame information to the viewer on how far into shooting/reloading the player is, what weapon they have out (unlocks with the same stock will appear identical without viewmodels, the only factor being the 3d player class in the corner which some people do not have enabled, and is not direct feedback to the viewer but rather secondary feedback. I'm on the side it should be viewer choice to disable, and that we need more viewmodel customization. but Valves reasoning isn't as baseless as you think it is.

 

[Showin; Growin;]

If there is any way to cheat, people will do it.

And if we are able to block r_drawviewmodel, we would also like to have that on our servers.

According to Funke (top comment)

That same comment you quoted stated that it should be the players choice to disable it or not. While I understand you want to get rid of any possible cheating I think everybody needs to consider the amount of customization in tf2 that already provides a similar type of advantage that new viewmodels could possibly add.

For example, minmode (Minimal Hud and Minimal Viewmodels) effectively reduces screen clutter which is the only advantage r_drawviewmodel / invisible viewmodels give the player. But that's not all. Custom huds could potentially give the player even more of an advantage by clearing up the screen significantly.

Viewmodel fov offers an advantage by reducing the the amount of space the viewmodel covers on the screen. It's the same type of advantage that an invisible viewmodel would give. It could even be seen as more of an advantage considering the extra visual feedback the player would get.

There's also other options like "left handed viewmodels" that could potentially offer an advantage as it covers a different side of the screen. It might seem minor but it's about as minor as an invisible viewmodel would be in reality.

no they don't but the provide frame by frame information to the viewer on how far into shooting/reloading the player is, what weapon they have out (unlocks with the same stock will appear identical without viewmodels, the only factor being the 3d player class in the corner which some people do not have enabled, and is not direct feedback to the viewer but rather secondary feedback.

The sounds and HUD display more accurate frame by frame information. Reload animations are deceiving, especially with something like the pistol. The reload is only complete until the very end of the animation, not the mag in portion. Reloading for looping weapons (rl, scattergun, etc) have a deceiving "reload_end" animation that makes the character look as if he isn't finished reloading, even though you can shoot right out of it immediately. A stream is prettier with viewmodels enabled, but forcing competitive streamers to have viewmodels enabled if they're uncomfortable with it is unneeded.

~ From Paysus's Reply To Funke

My point is that these customization options can be seen as just that. Customization. Some may offer minor advantages but that should just be a minor part of casual play. The game is full of these kind of customization options that basically go against what your trying to do. I understand your reasoning. I just believe the reasoning sort of loses it's purpose when there are many other minor advantages are given to us without even requiring a mod.

 

[KinCryos]

complain to Valve, not us.

 

[•Mr.Dr.Professor Toaster•]

If there is any way to cheat, people will do it.

And if we are able to block r_drawviewmodel, we would also like to have that on our servers.

According to Funke (top comment)

• There isn't a known way to cheat using custom animations especially when the hit-registration is determined by the server and not the client.
• ~ From Paysus's Reply To Funke
  My point is that these customization options can be seen as just that. Customization. Some may offer minor advantages but that should just be a minor part of casual play. The game is full of these kind of customization options that basically go against what your trying to do. I understand your reasoning. I just believe the reasoning sort of loses it's purpose when there are many other minor advantages are given to us without even requiring a mod.

complain to Valve, not us.

We are complaining to you because you removed the ability for us to use our custom animations and mods on your servers, you have a way to disable what you call "cheating" and yet you're still trying to limit us in every way even after we've proven to you that custom animations cannot be used to cheat and barely give any advantage to the user, especially when Valve themselves give every single user the ability to use minimized viewmodels and alter the weapon fov to reduce screen clutter to an absolute minimum. Its a stupid move on Valves part but why must you follow them on the same path even when it is clear they removed custom animations is because a big youtuber and a couple reddit users thought it created an "unfair advantage" When in reality the advantage can easily be created with the in game options, (why bother downloading a huge 50-100mb mod file when you can get the same results by tweaking the viewmodel fov and using minimized viewmodels which is something the server owners cannot regulate)
All I want to do is play harvest and 2fort with some decent looking animations and some weapon and and cosmetic mods.