gorf

Scarcely Lethal Noob
Probably gonna get minus'd to death because so many people use the classic MG mantreads loadout, but I'd like to just put my thoughts out there. Take a look at the data of Market Garden soldier on the VSH server if available.

For starters, the soldier's survivability far exceeds that of the other classes most of the time, yet have BY FAR the highest damage potential due to the market garden. It's much too easy, especially when paired with the mantreads and any source of healing, to do monumental damage compared to any other class or loadout in the game with half the effort required of other players. As most people have noticed, nine times out of ten a market garden soldier is present, he will always have the most damage, being usually 5k minimum. Add any more market gardeners against hale and they dominate the top three damage charts as well as the leaderboard, being somewhat discourage to other players. On top of that, the map meta is almost completely centered around how easy it is to market garden hale, usually boiling down to the immense availability of medium to large health kits and the openness of the map, meaning that the market garden almost completely dominates the meta of the server. For example, I'd like to point out how popular military area is almost exclusively because it is so easy to play market garden soldier on this map. Avoiding several market gardens as a hale while trying to play properly is difficult, uninteractive, and annoying, and impossible when trying to attack the rest of the team. Even if he does attempt to address them, they are still almost guaranteed to get more damage than anyone else with almost no risk or effort involved.

For comparison, the market garden does roughly the same damage as a backstab, and while both classes in this gamemode have very high survivability, it is significantly harder for the spy to land a backstab, especially against a good hale, becoming disarmed briefly upon succeeding. Despite this, it only does the same damage as a successful market garden, which is easier, faster, and more reliable than a backstab; on top of this, the soldier has better means of escape than the spy. Also, in contrast with the spy, missing your major damage generator doesn't stop you from potentially dealing consolation prize damage, in the form of a goomba/mantreads stomp. Meanwhile, if the spy fails, he gets 40 damage, and possibly killed due to his extremely vulnerable positioning.

A common argument I'm predicting for this is that soldiers would somehow be un-interesting and useless without market garden. I'd like to remind everyone he has three team-wide buffs, strong melee, and still very high survivability as well as decent damage potential without the market garden buff. If anything, nerfing the market garden may expand versatility for the soldier, as people would want to find new opportunities to deal consistent damage.
 

Iris Ⓐ

Truly Feared Pyro
Contributor
-1
MG Soldier was already nerfed not that long ago, including goomba/manntread stomp damage. It's fine as is now.
 

MrLupin

Spectacularly Lethal Soldier
Contributor
-1
Yes, MG Soldiers can be overpowered (especially with Mantreads) but I feel like the main problems is the Mantreads gives the Soldier more power than it should (more mobility on a good Trolldier = more mg's for them) The Mantreads need more of a nerfing or a straight up ban than Market Garden Soldiers in general to be honest.
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
applying crits_become_minicrits to MG could balance things out

nevermind, wasn't aware of the plugin's custom damage formula for the MG until now
 
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gorf

Scarcely Lethal Noob
-1
Yes, MG Soldiers can be overpowered (especially with Mantreads) but I feel like the main problems is the Mantreads gives the Soldier more power than it should (more mobility on a good Trolldier = more mg's for them) The Mantreads need more of a nerfing or a straight up ban than Market Garden Soldiers in general to be honest.

I can get behind this idea as well.

-1
MG Soldier was already nerfed not that long ago, including goomba/manntread stomp damage. It's fine as is now.

Except it's not. If you pay close attention, MG soldiers, like I said, completely dominate the server every single time they're picked, and it's not by a little. Previous nerfs should not render a practice immune to more nerfs if it's sitll blatantly more viable than everything else.
 

*Flame

Scarcely Lethal Noob
For example, I'd like to point out how popular military area is almost exclusively because it is so easy to play market garden soldier on this map. Avoiding several market gardens as a hale while trying to play properly is difficult, uninteractive, and annoying, and impossible when trying to attack the rest of the team. Even if he does attempt to address them, they are still almost guaranteed to get more damage than anyone else with almost no risk or effort involved.
+1
I know what your referring to since that is the norm for that map, in particular since the size and location of health kits make playing a MG soldier a cake walk while playing as hale you get completely slaughtered unless you manage to outmaneuver them or spam "E" like a mad man.
 

Jamala

Mildly Menacing Medic
+1
Honestly I more feel that it's the boots in general. Even outside of a balance issue it's not fun for anyone when someone with mantreads/gunboats can just run from the hale the entire game, and stall.
 

gorf

Scarcely Lethal Noob
Honestly, it’s true, the mantreads are the real problem here, not specifically MG. It’s just that almost every soldier uses them and I failed to acknowledge that that’s the real problem.
 

Brimp

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
-1
Mantreads on the other hand needs a nerf.
man treads have already been nerfed.
Still a -1 for me though since no matter the hales health the max mg damage a single one can do is 1300 compared to the old version where it would deal 4-5% of hales health

But still rip to the mantreads. It deserved the nerf but I will miss the days of playing on Crevice and wall jumping with only 2 rockets to the top instead of using the jump pads. Now I only get around half the height when I try that and it's not even enough to get back on ground level
 
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