Max1996

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
The Superjump is the most important way for Hale to move around the map. This is why it never made any sense for the HP penalty incurred upon every use of this ability.

On the other hand, the previous Superjump Vulnerability (double damage from hits during superjumps) makes more sense as a penalty, because it serves as a reward to players who manage to land those hits, due to how difficult that would be due to the Superjump.

Thus, I believe it is a good idea for the Superjump penalty to be reverted to what it was previously.
 

Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
Another mechanic for Super Jump is in the works for Hale's which is far better than SJV and SJC, it's better to hold out on SJC for the time being until the new mechanic is put into the Skial's VSH version.

-1 btw.
 
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mub

Totally Ordinary Human
Contributor
-1

Good Hales could effectively dodge the penalty of SJV when superjumping, completely mitigating the whole purpose of the superjump nerfs in the first place as well-versed Hales could still wipe the floor with 40,000+ health intact at the end of a round with some simple strafing and well-timed jumping.

SJV also caused an enormous balancing headache for RED where every single RED DPS had to be toned down significantly in order to prevent people from absolutely tearing apart Hale solo, i.e. Shields downgrading from crits to minicrits, which wasn't fun to play as.
 

Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
As far as I know there is no other mechanic being made to replace this.

There is a future VSH2 update being made that could potential make SJC obsolete since it's mostly based on Hale/Player performance for their rounds instead of relying on if the Player playing hale is a noob/pro, it's something that's being worked on in the dark since it's still a wip.
 

Opb

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Contributor
Mapper
Mub came up with the idea for the update. Its called Adaptive Health where a hales health is changed based on how much they win and how much health they have left. Adaptive Health works on a tier based system where new hales would have whats referred to as a Base Tier. For example, a hale wins a round with less than 40% of their starting health, then their tier would remain constant. However if they win with health greater than 40%, their tier would increase. If the hale loses but there's less than 20% of reds still alive, their tier would not change. If there is more than 20% of reds still alive, then their tier would go back. This Image explains more on how it roughly works. I would also add that I am currently the one that is developing this into an plugin at the moment.


AdaptiveHealthS.png
AdaptiveLogic.png
 
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Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
harder challenge
It's essentially not making it a harder challenge for players unless it's for Veteran players that want to enable it since it's supposedly to change the !diff 50% option, in which makes the SJC obsolete so newer players and or the average skial VSH player can play hale without it enabled to have normal HP cap and no penalty on hp costs and or damage vulnerability.

I find the Adaptive HP mechanic far more enjoyable from it's private testing to the current SJC that so many players in the server are complaining about, i just wished they complained about it on the forum instead of staying quiet...
 

Bottiger

Administrator
This just seems like an overly complicated version of the 50% hp difficulty settings if its made optional though.

Bosses winning a round depends highly on the map and what players are on the other team and having your hp pool constantly shift because of this just makes it a bad idea.

It also makes it harder to tell if bosses are overpowered or underpowered.

It also doesn't address the fact that people don't like fighting bosses that are in the air 90% of the time.
 

Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
Bosses winning a round depends highly on the map and what players are on the other team and having your hp pool constantly shift because of this just makes it a bad idea.
The mechanic focuses on Player skill, knowledge, and performance of round ending stats depending on HP% left and or reds left on round loss, So if the player is doing too good on their round, their next hale round will put them in a higher hp tier, and vice versa if said player is doing poorly on their round, they'll drop a hp tier, it isn't constantly shifting since you can win a round/lose a round and not shift into a new tier if your HP% and or reds left alive doesn't hit the requirement to do so.
 

Whurr

Uncharitable Spy
It also makes it harder to tell if bosses are overpowered or underpowered.

It also doesn't address the fact that people don't like fighting bosses that are in the air 90% of the time.
okay so for "OP or UP bosses" literally all you have to do to see if they're OP or UP is watch any of the VSH regs on your server play as said boss. and for "people don't like fighting bosses that are in the air 90% of the time." this is because the cooldown on superjumps is too short. consider upping the cooldown between when you can start charging a superjump after superjumping to 8s and increase the time it takes to fully charge a superjump to 100% to 6 or 8 seconds if you don't want bosses in the air 90% of the time. the only boss that isn't in the air 90% of the time and still wins (with marginally more health than the other bosses as well) is HHHjr. because HHHjr does not lose health for teleporting, most of the time skilled HHHjr players will win with >45% health remaining. health loss on superjump just funnels superjump hales into finishing with <20% health left regardless of how skilled the person playing is.
 
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Bottiger

Administrator
iterally all you have to do to see if they're OP or UP is watch any of the VSH regs on your server play as said boss.

No that is not all we have to do. Eyeballing it is how you have the unbalanced crap that vsh 1 is.

this is because the cooldown on superjumps is too short. consider upping the cooldown between when you can start charging a superjump after superjumping to 8s

That was the first thing I did when I started fixing VSH1. I increased jump time from 3 to 4 seconds and there were even more people whining about it than what we have now. 8 seconds would make it impossible to catch market gardeners.
 

Whurr

Uncharitable Spy
That was the first thing I did when I started fixing VSH1. I increased jump time from 3 to 4 seconds and there were even more people whining about it than what we have now. 8 seconds would make it impossible to catch market gardeners.
market gardener soldiers aren't impossible to catch without superjump. and if they were impossible to catch without superjump, then wouldn't HHHjr be screwed if the last people left alive were market gardener soldiers? you can bait them into trying to garden you and hit them instead, you can use rage (unless you use no rage) and none of the market gardener soldiers that frequent the server now are god-tier rocket jumpers, you can still catch them. have you ever considered mantreads+liberty launcher combo to be problematic on certain maps in the rotation right now? on some maps, it is virtually impossible to hale to catch up to a mantreads+liblauncher soldier (hakurei shrine, urban works. both big wide open maps with medium/large health kits out in the open that make treads+LL soldiers problematic on them in the first place) you really seem to be making the whole "market gardener soldier is hard to catch" problem to be much more problematic than it actually is. VSH isn't a gamemode you can just balance by looking at "The stats" because then you're just getting the same """unbalanced crap""" that you called vsh 1.
 

Bottiger

Administrator
then wouldn't HHHjr be screwed if the last people left alive were market gardener soldiers?

No because they can teleport.

VSH isn't a gamemode you can just balance by looking at "The stats" because then you're just getting the same """unbalanced crap""" that you called vsh 1.

This is stupid, you can't just use my own argument against me and claim it works that way just because you said so.

I do things differently and that's why our vsh server is top vsh server in the world. Everyone else just eyeballs what they think is "correct" and they are wrong most of the time.

That's why I buffed bosses when everyone said bosses were OP and screaming for more human buffs.
 

Whurr

Uncharitable Spy
No because they can teleport.



This is stupid, you can't just use my own argument against me and claim it works that way just because you said so.

I do things differently and that's why our vsh server is top vsh server in the world. Everyone else just eyeballs what they think is "correct" and they are wrong most of the time.

That's why I buffed bosses when everyone said bosses were OP and screaming for more human buffs.
it's not like teleporting stuns HHHjr for 3 seconds, preventing them from attacking and giving the soldier time to rocket jump away or anything. and a solorage wouldn't do anything since the soldier gets stunned for 1 second if it's a solorage. and since telestuck isn't a thing anymore you can't rely on that to get the soldiers either. so again, HHHjr has a harder time catching any soldier that's actively trying to avoid him. and capping on some maps (jurassic redux, reservoir, hakeuri shrine, degroot keep) isn't an option because either the cap doesn't work, or the cap time is so absurdly long that hale would die before they can cap the point.

i can use your own argument against you because it is flawed. bosses getting a faster swing speed for not using superjump for more then what feels like 5 seconds isn't balanced. hale's default swing speed should be slower so that not using superjump gives you the regular default melee swing speed instead of making it faster. gentlespy isn't balanced because he denies all melee based classes/subclasses because he will hit them first every time, and he has a hitscan primary that he starts with 2 bullets in reserve, allowing him to cheaply pick off REDs from any distance without them being able to fight back. "but CBS can pick REDs off from a distance as well" you may argue, CBS' arrows take time to reach their destination, meanwhile hitscan is instant. giving the REDs time to react to his arrows.

your VSH server is also only the top VSH server in the world because the other VSH community servers died out. gee i wonder why... also i don't """eyeball""" what is """correct""". i use actual experience playing the gamemode in the server you host for us, and if i or the rest of your VSH community finds something to be unfun to fight against, then it's probably not balanced. (see again: easter bunny demo being able to get crits and 1-shot everything that isn't a fully overhealed fists of steel heavy. no other boss besides gentlespy with backstabs can 1-shot any of the reds that aren't overhealed medics/pyros/demomen/soldiers/heavies, and most of the regulars in your server have come to the conclusion that EB demo is not fun nor balanced.) unrelated to boss balance, a map being popular doesn't mean it's good. cinema only stays in the rotation because people on the US server pick it as the "troll vote map" despite it not being remotely good gameplay-wise.

by buffing the bosses you only made winning as hale if you had more than 1 braincell even easier than it already was. but again, your """stats""" will back up that because that's clearly not the case because you keep trying to balance hale around the bottom 1% of players, said 1% who still lose even with 60k HP and 80% KB resist that scales up the longer you don't use superjump/teleport. health loss on superjump just reinforced new hale players losing without learning anything because they are getting punished for using the boss's basic mobility mechanic. and instead of making the health loss on superjump a !diff option like it should've been, it was forced onto everyone. a couple of regular hale players left because they felt like hale was genuinely unfun to play as compared to playing on RED. the only people left playing as hale on the US server are either people who have adapted to the health loss on superjump, or new players who don't know how to play as hale and get steamrolled by the RED team. let's not forget that HHHjr had a >60% winrate after the first week of health loss on superjump being added while every other boss had <40%. and you decided to nerf HHHjr by making him swing slower, but this barely changed anything for the good HHHjr players and again, only made it harder for new players to win as that boss. vagineer also has a low winrate because most of them get stunlocked by the holiday punch+huntsman taunt combo after using a rage. vagineer either wins with >40% health left or gets steamrolled 2 minutes in.
 

Max1996

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
I do things differently and that's why our vsh server is top vsh server in the world. Everyone else just eyeballs what they think is "correct" and they are wrong most of the time.

That's why I buffed bosses when everyone said bosses were OP and screaming for more human buffs.
...Are you serious? Because for this post, one Dumb reaction per person is so far from sufficient, it's not even in the same country as sufficient.

I'm strangely reminded of Samy and Amy Bouzaglo, look them up.
 
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Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
If the way the servers are now wasn't bad/unfun the server would still have more of the old regs but they moved on to other servers either made by themselves or another provider. I personally have no fun walking around not jumping at all or not very often and living with over 50% of hp because this was made for the (lets face it) trash tier players that don't know how to SJ in the first place/can't strafe etc. If a player has to learn to super jump to win then find a way to get it in their heads that they have to. Flash it on their screen in huge letters idc? It's a core fucking mechanic. The philosophy of balancing a game mode around people not knowing a mechanic is laughable and is why servers are filled with 90% of players that do not know how to do anything other than run around because they've been conditioned to never learn. The sad reality is if it was changed now the hale W/R would be so terrible because none of them SJ or were made to learn to enable themselves to do better. It's so triggering personally to watch a player say "wow i think i did good for my first time as hale" and they win with 30k health remaining. You think any other semi-competitive game mode (or game in general) has that low of a learning curve? No is the correct answer. I played VSH back when it was so called "unbalanced" and got the hang of it, learned, and now am at the skill level that i am. There's no excuse, if i can do it, they can too. When i started there was insanely good players that beat the shit out of me too, that's how the world works. The server feels like a tutorial that you're then graduated from to the "actual" server. If the goal is to make it completely balanced for the bad players, new, etc, then you've nailed it and is why people that arn't, moved on.