New VSH Gamemode Modification Requests

[Ļeón "Cheesecake" Coɾetż]

Although I know VSH isn't Skial's mod, I figure that Skial commands some influence in its updates, so I'd like to propose the following:

1) Improve Hale Selection: all too often, players go afk or don't want to be Hale but are oblivious to the messages saying they'll be Hale soon/next. Instead of merely notifying their position on the list, they should actively consent to being Hale, such as "You can be Hale next! Just press [Accept] to be next!" or "If you're ready to be the Hale, press [Accept]!". Do not choose (1) as the accept key because that's one of the default acknowledgements and players would simply ignore the message, then wonder why they're Hale next (I know, I know...).

2) Sniper Melees shouldn't block healing, rather, reduce healing like how the Equalizer/Escape Plan do. I've been commonly playing as MEDIC! and I can't tell ya how many times snipers beg for healing while holding out their stupid knife; while standing still. Other times, I'll be with a sniper, ubered, and well, what is a Machina Sniper to do but knife the Hale to death? Can't uber him though *sadface* (this isn't a special case—just an example of a larger problem). I completely understand why the ability to heal was taken away, I just don't think it's working in a balanced or fun way. Oh, and what if a Medic is desperate to gain Uber?

3) Introduce Sniper Class Limit: So, I'm not a big fan of class limits, for sometimes it's fun for a bunch of guys to be silly and bumrush Hale with SMGs, or have a bunch of minisentry engies, or 20 airblasting Pyros... which aside from infuriating, I've seen Hale's win against these, so it's not entirely unbalanced. But, there's a big issue: there are several maps that are completely brutal against Hale when too many Snipers are on, including Crevice, WeaponsDepot, UrbanWorks, and the worst of them all... TOYS. I've seen some very experienced, good Hales get rekt by a team of 11 Snipers on Toys, on the wardrobe. It's infuriating to be bouncing around the map as Hale with not a Pyro in sight! Or, most Hales have an unbelievably hard time getting to the top of Sniper's nests, and Snipers commonly get 4k+ on these, each. Again, I don't like Class Limits, but I don't see another way to balance this issue from the mod's side.

4) Something needs to be done about Market-Gardening Soldiers on maps like MilitaryArea, UrbanWorks, and MineGay. I don't want to add a class limit here because "average" soldiers aren't a problem, just the ones that bounce around and fly more than an airplane. These soldiers have replaced the scunts of old, and rounds have dragged on for many minutes with only one player left and Hale having a decent amount of health... because it's hard for Hale to get the soldiers. Actually, I can't make a recommendation that is fair and balanced, but it is definitely something that needs to be discussed. Points to consider are that: one market-gardening soldier isn't really a problem. A bunch of non-rocket-jumping soldiers aren't a problem. A dozen rocket-jumping market-gardening goomba-stomping soldiers is a big problem.

5) Map Rebalancing: In all honesty, Sniper class limits and Market Gardening Soldiers wouldn't be a problem if the maps were balanced. Having discussed with several players, the soldiers wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have ready access to full health packs, and OP sniper nests could be blocked off entirely or made more accessible to Hale. Unfortunately, too many maps have these problems, and they don't seem to get fixed even after years of unbalance, so I think it's time the mod itself dealt with these issues. Hopefully we can have someone fix these maps.

6) Limit the number of nominated maps: Currently, the menu for it only allows up to five choices, and sometimes players will nominate like ten maps, but only F(1-5) work. That or fix the menu to allow more choices (not as good an idea).

7) Hale Lose On End-of-Time: I think it makes sense that if the nearly omnipotent Hale is unable to win a round in the given timeframe, that instead of a stalemate, the Hale loses to the defenders. Though I can see how players would then simply try to outlast the Hale rather than kill him. But. something I think to consider.

8) Sniper Damage Bug: I've noticed, when playing as a cursed Sniper, that all full-powered bodyshots will deal 450 dmg, while sometimes full-powered headshots will only deal 293 (exactly). Applies to all Hales.

#) Please note I'm not complaining about Class Limits as they are implemented, nor am I asking for the existing limits to be reduced or eliminated. They seem balanced right now.

Sorry for this wall of text—I'm not good at brevity :/

 

[Ļeón "Cheesecake" Coɾetż]

So apparently #8 isn't a bug—it's a feature, from Hale's damage-taken reduction from Rage. Or so I've been told.

Also I've been personally told this thread is garbage. (one person)

Also I've been personally told this thread has many good points. (one different person)

Either way, would appreciate if anyone has dissenting or congruent views... Comments to the same...

 

[Morshu]

+1 for the first one

 

[Meowcenary]

The problem I see with limiting/nerfing these classes is limiting the fun of multiple people for the sake of one person (the boss player)

I also suspect military area and urbanworks are so popular because they allow people to go marketgardener soldier thanks to the large health kits.

Cream Tea before he made the map was even telling me larger maps with full health kits and a decent amount of ammo seem to be rather popular. I didn't think that's what would draw people in at the time but I was proven wrong when his Urban Works map became really popular.


I agree snipers are a complete and total pain in the ass, along with market gardener soldiers. But I strongly suspect nerfing and / or limiting them may effectively ruin the fun for a lot of people for the sake of a single individual who happens to be the boss

In my personal opinion I think the way to go is instead of limiting classes or nerfing them, we could try making some minor balance changes to the problematic maps.

For example, we could make it easier for Hale to get to the tower on weapons depot which should greatly help dealing with snipers. Toys could have a platform put half way on the cabinet allowing the boss something to jump on making it easier to jump to the snipers

Urbanworks, Cream Tea has already made balance changes to help with the sniper problem by lowering some buildings and adding platforms bosses can power jump onto. As far as the market gardening soldiers go I think maybe reducing the size of some (not all, just some) of the health kits from large health kits to smaller ones could certainly help 'nerf' market gardener soldiers without limiting the class (since they rely heavily on full health kits for rocket jumping)

 

[Luke]

#1 - Absolutely agree about this, this was something that I even raised to Bottiger the other day.
I think we need controls on VSH similar to those on FF2 - plus some additionals, for instance:

1. Make Hale opt-in (I like the idea of "If you want to be Hale next, press 4" or something
   
2. OR make Hale opt-out, add a way to say "Do not ever make me Hale"

Personally I've encountered an issue numerous times in which it doesn't let you avoid being Hale.
Sometimes (this isn't realiable) it says, "You're going to be Hale soon!" so you can reset your points.
However when it doesn't tell you this, when you attempt to suicide it says: "Do not suicide as Hale. Use !resetq instead.".

#2 - Allow medics to heal (but reduce the healing given, if possible).
If this isn't possible, then display a message to snipers when they call "MEDIC!".

#3 - I've never seen a major issue with the number of snipers

#4 - Definitely agree that something needs to be done about soldiers on VSH, it does waste peoples time.
I've watched ones that do barely any damage while avoiding Hale - and taking the health/ammo*

Here are some really quick ideas, if any of these are possible:

• Players should take damage if they've not done any damage for X minutes
• Raise the self-damage that rocket jumps deal to the soldiers when jumping
• Raise the fall-damage that soldiers take to something more considerable

*this kind of behaviour also causes more Hale's to cap rather than kill.
Which leads to increased votemenu abuse against the Hale (due to cap hate)

#5 - Sure, if this is possible.

#6 - No reason to not do this, I don't think.

#7 - No, would encourage hiding (especially with the betting system)

 

[Morshu]

#3 - I've never seen a major issue with the number of snipers

They are a big problem on maps like weaponsdepot

 

[Meowcenary]

#3 - I've never seen a major issue with the number of snipers

It's a map problem, not so much a sniper problem.

Windows already pointed it out, but certain maps there's specific spots that are extremely difficult to reach as the boss. You have to jump from a specific spot and even the slightest amount of knockback will ruin your jump.

Instead of limiting snipers I personally think we just need to make it slightly easier for the boss to get to those hard spots. Adding in a ledge a boss can land on half-way to the spot could make a world of a difference.

 

[White Moose]

you gotta nerf the mantreads id say for hales buzzing around hales head like mosquitos
other than that i think most of the problems are map related
i also disagree making hale lose at timerunout as people will simply hide.
other than that i agree with hale being opt in as too many hales simply afk or say kill me. these hales waste map time

 

[Ļeón "Cheesecake" Coɾetż]

I'm glad this thread finally spawned some discussion! I like your guys' input, and I hope that we can get propositions 1, 2, 5, 6 instigated. I also don't like such heavy-handed fun-limiting tactics, (per Meowcenary), and I agree that proper map balancing would nullify points 3 and 4.

Yeah, point 7 was kind've a "in a perfect world..." idea, which I brought up because: The goal of the match is for Hale to slaughter the players; he plays offence. If defence holds out long enough, offence loses. I clearly understand people would simply turn it into a game of hide-and-seek (as it sometimes is already), and I didn't expect this point to make it very far. Just thought it'd be interesting.

So as of right now, the points to focus on are:
1) Improve Hale Selection
• Hale candidates must Opt-In (I prefer), OR; [Currently +3]
• Hale candidates may Opt-Out. (per Luke)
2) Allow Melee Snipers to be Healed [+1]
• 90% heal reduction malus, OR;
• Snipers who call for Medic! while not being able to heal get an acknowledgeable message telling them to sheathe their knife if they want heals. (per Luke)
5) Rebalance Maps [+4]
- Properly done, this would negate propositions 3 and 4
6) Map Voting Menu Fix [+1]
• Limit the number of nominated maps to the size the menu can hold (I prefer), OR;
• Expand the menu to allow more nominees to be shown.

All may safely ignore ideas 7 and 8. If I could strike thru them I would.

If #5 is for whatever reason not acted upon, then the points for #4 would follow:
4) Rebalance Rocket-Jumping Soldiers (per Luke) [+2]
• Players should take damage if they've not done any damage for X minutes
- Would work for all classes, too.
• Raise the self-damage that rocket jumps deal to the soldiers when jumping
• Raise the fall-damage that soldiers take to something more considerable
• Nerf the Mantreads (per White Moose)
and #3:
3) Sniper Class Limit [?]
- See the Poll, and the comment contained below:

Interestingly, the poll currently stands at 2 No votes and 7 Yes votes for having a Sniper class limit. While this is a small sample size considering the activity of Skial servers and VSH mode in general, I find it noteworthy that the "No" opinion has been voiced more than once in the comments, while the "Yes" opinion hasn't been advocated at all. If this were purely democratic, we'd have a Sniper limit. If it's logical (in the sense of arguments being put forth and deliberated on), then "No" would win. There could be the issue of "if it works, don't fix it", in that the only people who wish to vote are those who take issue with it, while the status quo is content to not seek out this forum. You may note that I am not voting.