Declined Tweaking Of FF2.

[Drezki]

As we all know, FF2 is quite different from VSH. That much can be stated and directly understood.
However, there are a few things that need to be addressed, and despite my lack of experience in coding, I can at least help give a decent idea of how we need to start.

As it stands, Spy does too much damage when it comes to a backstab. 9 (or 10)% of a bosses' health is too much. For example, 9% of 35,000 is 3,150 dmg for.. slapping your knife into a hale's back, whilst on the VSH server, it's approximately 3% or so. Soldiers would receive almost half of that.
However, the main reason for this change is to assist the similarities between the two servers; and to set them on even ground. This would result in players trying out FF2, without losing the familiarity of VSH.

Henceforth, I suggest we:

• Change Spy Backstab damage to 3% (Same as VSH, inherently)
• Re-Add Goomba Stomping
• Reduce Market Garden damage to be roughly 4 - 5%
• Re-Add Sniper Climbing
• And fix the class info section.

The reasoning behind these changes can be simply explained. When it comes to backstabs, the VSH server has addressed the issue of it doing too much damage, hence the nerf.

1. With Goomba Stomping, it's a favoured utility that can be turned of via console if so wished to be.
2. Market Gardens end up being 100% more dangerous than backstabs, and tend to require more skill; therefore it gets a higher damage rate to support the players risking it.
   
3. Sniper Climbing gives snipers a chance to do something other than take it sitting down, therefore increasing suitable class survivability.
4. Spy Backstabs can usually be done simply. You go up to a boss from behind, stab them, and then run away. The only times it can be considered "lethal" is if you are fighting The Rock, Doomguy, or One Punch Man, as they can punch through dead ringer.
5. The class info section gives people an idea of what they can use to better differentiate their loadouts. By not knowing the entirety of the info.. people get stuck using the same loadouts, or just loadouts that aren't any different.

When it comes to the Spy's sapper, there is a plugin that I may be able to assist in getting. Essentially, instead of a sapper, the spy gets a "kunai" (Which is actually a flying guillotine w/ crits.) By having this recharge at a reasonable rate, the spy can deal damage with skill instead of a wiggle of the mouse.

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, by all means, ask away in the comments!

 

[herp 105.4]

Change Spy Backstab damage to 3% (Same as VSH, inherently)

our spy is nerfed in other ways to compensate and also to note it already got nerfed by some percentage i cannot remember

Re-Add Goomba Stomping

we cant have that for a funny reason

Reduce Market Garden damage to be roughly 4 - 5%

neat suggest but due to it requiring skill i think we leave it as it is. ive seen so many market gardeners getting punished for missing

Re-Add Sniper Climbing

sniper doesnt have wall climb because it would be a bit too strong and also intensities teaming up with an engi to get to good spots

And fix the class info section.

i havent met a single person who unironically reads that but good suggest either way

Spy Backstabs can usually be done simply. You go up to a boss from behind, stab them, and then run away. The only times it can be considered "lethal" is if you are fighting The Rock, Doomguy, or One Punch Man, as they can punch through dead ringer.

good bosses know how to deal with spy, its called turning around. granted, its hard to find spies in the start of the round when bosses tend to get swarmed but good players know how not to get swarmed and pick off players 1 by 1 when they can

When it comes to the Spy's sapper, there is a plugin that I may be able to assist in getting. Essentially, instead of a sapper, the spy gets a "kunai" (Which is actually a flying guillotine w/ crits.) By having this recharge at a reasonable rate, the spy can deal damage with skill instead of a wiggle of the mouse.

spy already has good ranged damage, heck ive seen revolver spies get tonnes of damage

 

[Percilius]

+1 to the spy backstab damage nerf. Yeah we made other nerfs to attempt to compensate for the damage but it still doesn't properly deal with the root problem. Telling people that they can just turn around is much easier said than done, and it's funny that it's coming from someone who never plays boss.

+1 to the re-addition of the goomba stomp of course. Bottiger approved that but I don't think it worked which is why we don't see it on FF2.

+0 for the market gardener damage nerf, market gardens are much easier to see coming towards you than a spy is and it also takes a lot more skill. Not to mention the soldier would most likely lose his life. So reducing it's damage doesn't make much sense. Although I don't think 4-5% is far off from what it currently deals so I'm not sure on that.

-1 for the wall climb. Sure, it ensures better survivability for the sniper if he gets seen but more often than not, the snipers take a good chunk out of the bosses health by the time they're found, unless they're targeted at the start itself, which isn't common. Plus snipers are normally around nests and normally run towards a large crowd of players when he gets seen.

+1 for the class info section.

 

[Stove™]

+1 for Spy’s backstab nerf. This has been needed for a while as I’ve seen one too many bosses just get absolutely shredded by them. If, for some reason, that won’t work, I propose maybe a smaller class limit on Spy? Currently the limit is at 4, so why not make it 2 or 3? There are plenty of other damage dealers to play as anyway.

+1 to goomba stomping’s return. Like Droplet said, it was added back into FF2 but doesn’t work for some reason.

-1 for the market gardener nerf for the same reasons stated before: it’s much harder to successfully land a market garden than it is to simply stick a knife in someone’s back if you take into account air strafing and all that jazz.

+0 for the Sniper wall climb. I’ve always been divided on whether or not having his wall climb is a good idea. On the one hand, better survivability for the Sniper, plus more mobility options for him to get to a good Sniping spot without having to walk across the entire length of the map. On the other hand, they can knock a good chunk of health off the boss and be slightly harder to catch with the added mobility. I’ll let others decide on that.

+1 for the class info section just because it’s a nice quality of life change.

 

[Drezki]

+0 for the market gardener damage nerf, market gardens are much easier to see coming towards you than a spy is and it also takes a lot more skill. Not to mention the soldier would most likely lose his life. So reducing it's damage doesn't make much sense. Although I don't think 4-5% is far off from what it currently deals so I'm not sure on that.

+-1 for the market gardener nerf for the same reasons stated before: it’s much harder to successfully land a market garden than it is to simply stick a knife in someone’s back if you take into account air strafing and all that jazz.

The overall idea for the market garden was to increase the damage to be higher than spies' backstab, but i don't exactly know how much they do currently. The best I can do is give an assumption that it gives about 1/2 of what spy's current damage percentile is (9%), so it could very well actually be lower than 4 or 5 percent. With the provided example above, a soldier would most likely get about 1.3k or so, which is actually less than 4.5% of the hale's health.
Using the example from above, 9% of the hale's health would be 3,150, while 4.5% would equal 1,575. However, and I could very well be wrong, I've seen soldiers get about 1.3k while spies get a bit more than twice the amount.

I guess what I'm trying to explain is that the overall idea is that Soldier can perform more damage with the market gardener - by wording I said reduction, but it could actually be an increase based off of the potentiality of what soldier's MGs percent is at.
(I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be able to find the config file, considering it's server-side and not client.)

 

[herp 105.4]

just leave the market gardener as it is, soldiers are pretty much perfectly balanced, as all things should be

 

[goldencheeze]

+1 spy nerf
+0 goomba stomping could be fine either way and its already balanced around the lack of it but still cool if it does come back
-1 soldier is fine
-1 snipers already have a decent damage output and knockback, but your survival usually depends on your positioning, not a fancy wall climb that is just annoying for bosses, if you move around all the time as sniper unless you get focused down you'll be able to survive pretty long against most boss players
+1 no one reads class info but fixing it is only helpful so if someone feels like fixing it that would be a welcome change and if not, no one is hurt