Trade EU Map

[n3k();]

Hi. I'm Nek. I'm here to give my very personal feedback about the Trade EU server map.
English is not my specialty ( I am french ), so I already apologize for what will be read here.

In the first place I would like to thanks the mapmaker and the skial staff for this server. I love the mods, I love the jetpack and I like this map a lot ( a bit less than the previous one but that's not important ). I think this server is the result of many hours of work and I'm very thankful for that. I play on the server almost everyday.

Second thing I want to say is : the skybox is too low. We need a higher skybox.

Now, let's start the real things with the high priority technical issues :

• There are some problems with the "melee ring".
  • The worst abuse : Go on a corner, over the fences, on a place where you are in the trigger box, and you have forced-melee "attribute" ( I don't know what I'm talking about ). When you jump, you will be able to fire immediately your first / secondary weapon ; without any "firing rate" check. You can use this to spam spawn doors with scorch torch for example, with a fire rate ~2x superior to the standard one, and infinite ammos.
    In any cases, giving full ammo / clip to the player may not be a good idea, especially on this server where player can fly super fast. It's very easy to reload a full sticky launcher with this.
    
    
  • If you jump while in the ring, you have no weapons for ~500ms.
    Doing that give you full ammo. So it reset the dead ringer, for example, and maybe the razorback.
    I suspect enemies in the ring can't hit you during that time ; but it's not easy to check.
    
    This 2 problem can be fixed easily : the map maker may make the triggerbox higher.
    
    
  • While in the ring, you can use grappin hook to damage ppl who are not in the ring (and they can't damage you).
    
    
  • A pyro outside of the ring can push players who are in the ring. You can do this to push a player outside of the ring. I think it's the same for the Loose Cannon but I did not tried.
    
    
  • As an engineer, if you hold a construction ( you build something then you take it with +attack2 ) ; then go inside the ring and leave the ring, you will be in a weird state, where your opponent will see you holding a construction, but you can hit them with your melee weapon. They can't tell when you attack, giving yourself a little advantage ; but you can't use anything but the melee.
    
    
• There are some problems with the "safe zone"
  • You still can grappin hook on ppl, and when you +jump while "grapped" to someone, you will be "stuck on his head". That's a normal behaviour. The problem is, by doing this, you can prevent a player to quit the safe zone by the "spawn" door : this door is on the roof.
    
    
  • You can use the Loose Cannon to push players. It does not apply damages, but you can push a player outside of the safe zone. This bug make the safe zone not safe at all.
    
    
  • You can exit the safezone state while being inside the safe zone, using the jetpack. In this situation, you will take damages, and you will be able to use the flamethrower +attack2 to push enemy players.
    
    
• There is a problem with the "side portals", the doors in spawn that teleport to the other side of the map:
  • As your momentum isn't cancelled while taking this door, you will be pushed back in the portal, teleported back in spawn. And as your momentum isn't cancelled while taking this door, you will be pushed back in the portal, teleported back in the other side of the map... And repeat. At this point you don't touch any key and wait until your character is totally motionless. It make this door hard to use. I think there is a way to use this door with no problem, but it's not easy for me to explain in english.
    To fix this, the mapmaker can, for example, swap this door with the "safe zone" door : the "safe zone" prtal face the opposite direction of the portal in the "side" room, so with any momentum, a teleported player will move away from the opposite portal.
    I try my best to be understandable, I promise !
    
    
• Other general issues:
  • The resupply lockers are far too close to the spawn doors.
    A sniper can spam jarate.
    
    
  • The doors are too big : a player can change team to maintain the door open ; and his friends can target a player without hurting the "griefer". Making the doors smaller may resolve this, but I'm not sure.
    
    
  • You can use the Flying Guillotine and flamethrower through the spawn glasses.
    
    
  • The healthpack / Ammo hover the spawn doors make it very easy to spawncamp.

That being said, I came here to give my opinion about this map.

But before, I want to say it's impossible to satisfy everyone : I give a feedback of MY feeling, but I perfectly understand if YOU may personally think everything I say is bullshits. I am not a special player, I have no right to ask anything, and I am already very thankful for the mapmaker work.
It's okay if everything stay the same for months. I played 2 years, almost everyday, on the old map. I miss this big open map, but yet I understand some people may be bored to always play on this map.

So here are my opinions :

I would like higher skybox. In fact, a higher roof. A roof would make it possible to grab flying players : a roof would make jetpack more fair. I love jetpack and I hope you realize how it's hard for me to give this feedback :-)

I would like more covers, especially on the top of the map. It would make sniper duels more interesting. In general, I find it very difficult to hide on this map. Add more walls, more rooms, idk... Also, it would make jetpack more challenging

The control point is a good idea, but it's hidden, and the place is in the dark, so it's not very interesting to guard this zone. It would be cool to be able to see the control point state from the spawn. Like, some part of the map would be colored depending of which team hold the point. I would also like more light in this place, and maybe make it less cluttered, so an entire team can fit in this place. Maybe add some glasses, some doors... Idk

I would like more lights, because it's a trade server, we're here to show our cosmetics. More light in spawn, in safe zone and near the control point. More light everywhere, I want to see my cosmetics. The mapmaker can keep some places in the dark, like the way to safe zone and the "side portals" little rooms, but the more lights will be added, the more happy I am.

Finally, I would like a higher skybox.

Now the ultimate conclusion your not ready for : If it was very fun to buy the donator powers on the previous map, where you could teleport inside enemy spawn and there were many fun things to do, this map does not make me want to use the donator mode at all.
There is no benefit I can have from the donator mode : going faster in this map is useless, because the map is too small ; placing teleporters as spy is useless, because teleporters can't lead you to a place that require to use a teleporters. I really think there is a missed opportunity here. In fact, I originally made this entire post because I wanted to talk about this.

Thank you for reading. I hope the time I invested in this review won't be lost.

See you in Skial Trade EU ♥

EDITS : Added an issue for ring and fighting list formatting and more jetpack things

 

[Maddo]

I'm not trying to be funny.. BUT, with the time it took you to write all this, you could have learned how to make a map yourself.

 

[Jermaphobe]

I'm not trying to be funny.. BUT, with the time it took you to write all this, you could have learned how to make a map yourself.

Do you know how to make a map yourself?

 

[Jermaphobe]

Couple of notes

You can use the Flying Guillotine and flamethrower through the spawn glasses.

Nothing the mapper can do about this. It is a game bug Valve refused to fix.

The healthpack / Ammo hover the spawn doors make it very easy to spawncamp.

Spawn camping is allowed.

There is a problem with the "side portals", the doors in spawn that teleport to the other side of the map:

• 
  As your momentum isn't cancelled while taking this door, you will be pushed back in the portal, teleported back in spawn. And as your momentum isn't cancelled while taking this door, you will be pushed back in the portal, teleported back in the other side of the map... And repeat. At this point you don't touch any key and wait until your character is totally motionless. It make this door hard to use. I think there is a way to use this door with no problem, but it's not easy for me to explain in english.
  To fix this, the mapmaker can, for example, swap this door with the "safe zone" door : the "safe zone" prtal face the opposite direction of the portal in the "side" room, so with any momentum, a teleported player will move away from the opposite portal.
  I try my best to be understandable, I promise !

Nothing the mapper can really do about this. Its just how teleports in TF2 work.

There are some problems with the "safe zone"

• 
  You still can grappin hook on ppl, and when you +jump while "grapped" to someone, you will be "stuck on his head". That's a normal behaviour. The problem is, by doing this, you can prevent a player to quit the safe zone by the "spawn" door : this door is on the roof.
  
  
  You can use the Loose Cannon to push players. It does not apply damages, but you can push a player outside of the safe zone. This bug make the safe zone not safe at all.
  
  
  You can exit the safezone state while being inside the safe zone, using the jetpack. In this situation, you will take damages, and you will be able to use the flamethrower +attack2 to push enemy players.

Safezone is a plugin, the map just uses a trigger to tell the plugin where to apply the safezone. Most of this is side effects from everyone in safe zone having god mode, because regular TF2 players don't have god mode. Most of it is harmless so I doubt Bottiger will modify the plugin to circumvent it, primarily the loose canon and grapple. Jet pack spamming the safezone message in chat is unintended behavior, but again I doubt Bottiger will modify either plugin to be aware of each other and "fix" the bug.

There are some problems with the "melee ring".

• 
  The worst abuse : Go on a corner, over the fences, on a place where you are in the trigger box, and you have forced-melee "attribute" ( I don't know what I'm talking about ). When you jump, you will be able to fire immediately your first / secondary weapon ; without any "firing rate" check. You can use this to spam spawn doors with scorch torch for example, with a fire rate ~2x superior to the standard one, and infinite ammos.
  In any cases, giving full ammo / clip to the player may not be a good idea, especially on this server where player can fly super fast. It's very easy to reload a full sticky launcher with this.
  
  
  If you jump while in the ring, you have no weapons for ~500ms.
  Doing that give you full ammo. So it reset the dead ringer, for example, and maybe the razorback.
  I suspect enemies in the ring can't hit you during that time ; but it's not easy to check.
  
  This 2 problem can be fixed easily : the map maker may make the triggerbox higher.
  
  
  While in the ring, you can use grappin hook to damage ppl who are not in the ring (and they can't damage you).
  
  
  A pyro outside of the ring can push players who are in the ring. You can do this to push a player outside of the ring. I think it's the same for the Loose Cannon but I did not tried.
  
  
  As an engineer, if you hold a construction ( you build something then you take it with +attack2 ) ; then go inside the ring and leave the ring, you will be in a weird state, where your opponent will see you holding a construction, but you can hit them with your melee weapon. They can't tell when you attack, giving yourself a little advantage ; but you can't use anything but the melee.

Boxing ring also relies on a plugin, and most of your notes are plugin related. Though you are right that raising the trigger zone for the plugin will solve the first two problems.

 

[Maddo]

Do you know how to make a map yourself?

Not for TF2, but I made a couple for Q3 in the past.

 

[StereoBucket]

Nothing the mapper can really do about this. Its just how teleports in TF2 work.

You could do !activator - AddOutput - BaseVelocity <vector pointing away from the door with sufficient magnitude to stop the backwards speed>
Can probably be added without recompiling.

 

[Jermaphobe]

Not for TF2, but I made a couple for Q3 in the past.

TF2 is a different, infuriating, and retarded ball game

 

[KinCryos]

Nothing the mapper can do about this. It is a game bug Valve refused to fix.

aside from making the glass thicker (I think 16 Hammer Units think is the minimum where it won't happen with the Flying Guillotine, and is more than enough for Flamethrowers). I think the reason Valve didn't fix it is because no wall brushes are too thin in official maps

 

[Jermaphobe]

aside from making the glass thicker (I think 16 Hammer Units think is the minimum where it won't happen with the Flying Guillotine, and is more than enough for Flamethrowers). I think the reason Valve didn't fix it is because no wall brushes are too thin in official maps

I don't believe this is true, I can do this on several glass walls in Awesomebox and it can still occur, a prime example is the glass wall separating red and blu battlements on the 2nd level is exactly 16 units long and I can still trigger it there

 

[KinCryos]

I don't believe this is true, I can do this on several glass walls in Awesomebox and it can still occur, a prime example is the glass wall separating red and blu battlements on the 2nd level is exactly 16 units long and I can still trigger it there

the glass there is less than 16 units thick. I know this because the stone borders can be stood on at the side the cap is at and those are 16 units thick. the glass divider on the lower level is 16 units thick and I haven't been able to cleave through it like I can with the ones on the spawn level IIRC

 

[Jermaphobe]

Its 16

 

[KinCryos]

oh, I mistook "Battlements" for the spawn areas

 

[n3k();]

Yes I know how to make maps, but... I would spend 16 hours on a map, just to see it never used ? I prefer to have 16% of this post useful than 0% of a map.

Maybe it could be possible to combine safe zone with melee ring effect, to have pure safety ; or possible to add kind of a quickfix uber effect to prevent players from being pushed ?
The portal to spawn, in safe zone, could be a hole in the ground ; a hole that only the member of the side team can fall in ( with the same walls that prevent a player to go in enemy spawn ), could be big enough so an enemy can't prevent a player to leave just by standing over the hole ?
Maybe the glass could be less thick ?
For sure the spawncamp should stay allowed :D but couldn't it be more fun if it were a little more challenging?
Maybe the fences of the ring could be higher, so it's impossible to grab someone outside of the ring ?

Certainly my answers are not perfects or totally stupid, or maybe theses issues are not real problems, does not have solutions or does not worth to be resolved...
But I wanted to address them. Especially the conclusion ;-)

 

[n3k();]

Hey, I saw you fixed the melee ring. Now it seems worth to me.

We still can use grappinhook on players outside of the ring. All their damage against us are prevented and he have to come inside the ring. But as soon as the target jump on the fence, we go upward, and so, we are teleported to spawn.
Jumping randomly teleport to spawn.
Also, I'm not sure about this, but an enemy pyro, or a demoman with the cannon ; may still be able to push players out of the ring, teleporting them.

The ring basically became a teleporter with extra steps.

For me a better solution would be : only remove the damage prevention effect when you leave the ring ; and keep the melee only effect. No "weapon refresh" effect when you leave the ring ; so you would have no interest to leave if you goes inside the ring, because it would only remove the damage prevention effect.

With this, a spy would still be allowed to use the ring for invisibility refill ; but he would not be able to use his sapper, gun, or disguise tool anymore. I think this could still be an issue with dead ringer inside the ring, if the spy jump. But for this, you could just higher the trigger zone ceil ( or lower the ground, so it's easy to come inside, but once inside, it is harder to leave ).
The engineer could still refill metal with this, but he could not use wrangler nor construct things.

PS : I apologize for my bad very english, it is not my native speaking.

 

[Jermaphobe]

Hey, I saw you fixed the melee ring. Now it seems worth to me.

We still can use grappinhook on players outside of the ring. All their damage against us are prevented and he have to come inside the ring. But as soon as the target jump on the fence, we go upward, and so, we are teleported to spawn.
Jumping randomly teleport to spawn.
Also, I'm not sure about this, but an enemy pyro, or a demoman with the cannon ; may still be able to push players out of the ring, teleporting them.

The ring basically became a teleporter with extra steps.

For me a better solution would be : only remove the damage prevention effect when you leave the ring ; and keep the melee only effect. No "weapon refresh" effect when you leave the ring ; so you would have no interest to leave if you goes inside the ring, because it would only remove the damage prevention effect.

With this, a spy would still be allowed to use the ring for invisibility refill ; but he would not be able to use his sapper, gun, or disguise tool anymore. I think this could still be an issue with dead ringer inside the ring, if the spy jump. But for this, you could just higher the trigger zone ceil ( or lower the ground, so it's easy to come inside, but once inside, it is harder to leave ).
The engineer could still refill metal with this, but he could not use wrangler nor construct things.

PS : I apologize for my bad very english, it is not my native speaking.

Make a suggestion to rework the plugin