New Teach potential admins how to properly identify cheaters

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by samien, Oct 28, 2018.

?

Ask applicants more cheater related questions?

Poll closed Nov 4, 2018.
  1. Yes

    33.3%
  2. No

    66.7%
  1. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    I've noticed that when potential admins are considered the questions asked are usually hypothetical scenarios that test their understanding of the rules and as a way of testing their potential admin abuse but one thing i never see is testing them on how they identify cheaters. In my humble opinion, a large portion of the tf2 players i encounter on skial have no idea what cheats look like or what they should be looking for. Most are not aware of spectator delay or gauge a suspected cheater purely on their aim. What im trying to say is that the methods some people (and some admins) use to identify a cheater could be improved. I've been banned by new admins 2 times now which prompted me to make this. Im not hating or anything, i just think it would be great to increase awareness on identifying cheaters. I dont expect every new admin to be able to do their job properly but being banned twice made me realise you guys dont even try to help these guys when it comes to sniffing out cheaters so heres some info that i think new admins (or just players really) would find useful:

    One thing im sure all admins are capable of doing is identifying blatant cheaters. Im talking about the ones that do 360s and crank out headshot after headshot. These are bad cheaters and it doesnt take any thinking to ban them. Something i notice is that people often mix up the terms associated with cheats or use different definitions, for consistency i'll just define what i consider a few terms to be :

    Aimkey:
    When held down the aimbot is active, when not held aimbot is inactive and the user aims manually.

    Triggerbot:
    Does not affect your crosshair movement, only fires when the player puts the xhair over an enemy. Some people think it triggers their aim to flick however this is not true afaik.

    Silent Aim:
    This is what most people are referring to when they think of aimlocking. Here's where it gets interesting, in source games the field of view to which these cheats can cause your aim to flick to a target can be configured. A poorly configured one may use a large FOV which would cause blatantly inconsistent flicks to hit consistently. A properly configured low FOV aimbot however is much more difficult to see in spectator, and in my opinion 100% impossible to spot. Because the aimlock only triggers when your xhair is only a few degrees away from the enemy and when your aimkey is held down, the flicks look really natural in spectator. I've even defended a silent aim user because i was unaware of them using it, thats how hard it is to know. This is also the type of cheats csgo pros use which some supposedly pay upwards of $100k to code so it can bypass custom LAN anticheat. Scouts/heavies usually use a higher fov aimbot than snipers.

    I thought i'd list a few ways you can identify a cheater OTHER THAN their aim:
    1) Look at their movement, if they look like they're moving on a controller or cant strafe properly or show any signs of movement of an experienced player but their aim is god tier then theres a higher chance they might be cheating.

    2) Look at their xhair placement. Tf2 classes have varying heights so someone with a wallhack would place their xhair at an angle at different heights based on what class is going to peek. For example, i have a general height where i place my xhair and i adjust based on what class is peeking me because i have no idea whats going to peek (unless ik im fighting a sniper or a player keeps doing the same thing) however someone with wallhacks might have a higher xhair placement when a sniper is peeking but a lower xhair placement when a scout is going to peek or an engineer.

    3)Look at how they kill other players from the dead player's perspective. This might sound silly but (especially during sniper 1v1s) you just know when an enemy sniper is cheating. The way they peek and their time to kill looks normal but it feels off. This is something that can only be gained from gamesense and playing but its definitely a real thing and experienced snipers ( like soo) would agree that it exists. Heres an example : https://www.skial.com/threads/vertillex-aimbot-toggling.69261/
    I never caught him when i spec'd him (didnt know about !spec at the time) however i knew he was cheating because he felt off from my POV and it turns out he got VAC banned a few days later. This might be hard to determine from a demo but if the suspect is still on maybe its wise to try and fight them to get a general idea what you think about their deathmatch skills.

    4)Other than private profiles or level 0 ones, a suspect with edgy names or people trying hard to bait a response out of others are probably cheating. They do it to get a reaction out of you.Definitely not nearly a determining factor but all of these things are worth considering.

    Enough with the wall of text, lets go on to some visual examples:

    1)Spectator delay can look pretty weird but its just something you have to deal with. Here's a clip of a demo recorded on LAN showcasing how stupid it can look.

    Fast flicks are properly recorded on the suspect's POV,on their end the flick looks normal while in spectator it looks like their aim hasnt moved:

    2)Heres a poorly censored in post demonstrating how the wallhack XHAIR thing would look (Note: the guy in the clip WAS NOT cheating this is just an example of how it COULD look) Notice how they change xhair height based on what class was peeking.

    3) heres some vids demonstrating silent aim in csgo however the same concept applies to tf2:

    Bit longer video but imho its a great vid to watch if you're interested in this type of stuff:

    4) Its important to keep in mind that tf2 is a very chaotic game and despite some stuff looking incredibly shady it can be boiled down to luck in the heat of the moment. For example look at how i accidentally headshot this cloaked spy while aiming for the other one:

    That would look shady in spectator, it would look like my xhair was noway near that guy yet a cloak spy dies however when reviewing my pov you can clearly see it looks normal. Im only showing you this to emphasis how different stuff can look from spectator.

    Keep in mind sound is also a great factor in tf2 and i personally think some of you guys overlook the info sound can provide. Here's an extreme example that was obviously lucky but the point im trying to make is keep your wits about you when watching demos. This looks blatant but with some paid attention it can be explained:

    So whats the point of this long post?
    TL;DR:
    I personally think that in admin applications some questions should be geared towards the admin's ability to identify cheaters. Doesnt sound like a huge issue right? It really isnt but some form of evaluation about their overall knowledge on how cheats look would be nice. Nothing major, maybe just being able to understand spectator delay and just how cheats look. Provided some info so it doesnt look like im just flaming but i think you guys would find it useful. Keep in mind i can assume you guys arent helping the new admins because ive been hammer'd twice by newer ones however i know this is not true but it can happen to any other decent player that might sour their taste of skial.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Crash.ca

    Crash.ca Uncharitable Spy Contributor

    Funny how someone can be called out by 38 different people and claim that its "latency or his ping" everytime and have that float.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    This post is addressing a suggestion please respond in regard to that and not about personal grudges. Go to unmod or something.
     
  4. Cream Tea

    Cream Tea Legendary Skial King Legendary Mapper

    Steam:

    Well it's strange that the only person who constantly gets vote banned for cheating is laying out a massive wall-of-text guide on how to spot cheaters as if you're a professional cheater yourself and know the ins and outs.

    It's like the perfect facade.
     
  5. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    Yeah clearly all this info i gave with videos supplying such info definitely came from my head because i cheat. All this stuff can be found on google pretty easily.
     
  6. Metroidz

    Metroidz Server-Clearing Cynic

    Steam:

    I like this post. But all in all cheaters these days can do a very good job of looking like a highly skilled normal player and its hard.

    And from my experience as admin looking for cheaters maps like 2fort make looking for wallhacks almost a null point, being the map is completely symmetrical. (Unless it is blatant).

    I think these are very good and the best way for these new admins to find out if someone is really cheating is just to record demos of people like you to see sketchy shots and use logic to determine how or why someone looked somewhere or shot a player in a particular way.

    Practice makes perfect. :)

    Still a great topic in discussing one of the more frustrating things (IMO) that demo/POV camera shots and actual shots, crosshair is always slightly off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  7. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    Definitely. I dont expect newer admins to be proficient in identifying cheaters but as it stands theres no guide or anything for them (at least to my knowledge) so at least maybe a few examples of what silent aim looks like or knowing what spectator lag is would be something all future admins would be required to learn you know? I dont think any of this stuff is mentioned in the admin apps and not everyone is aware of it.
     
  8. Crash.ca

    Crash.ca Uncharitable Spy Contributor

    There's alot of new "downloads" that people are trying, we ran into alot playing casual doing the halloween things, and if it was VAC detected they'd of been removed right away but they werent and we had endure until the round ended or leave the server because of the crap. So for someone to say that VAC catches all these "cheaters" are full of shit.
     
  9. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    Nobody said that. Its well known VAC is shit. This post wouldnt have to be made if VAC wasnt shit.
     
  10. Cream Tea

    Cream Tea Legendary Skial King Legendary Mapper

    Steam:

    Then I am sure the admins can find it themselves and work it out, let me remind you that @selkies was thought to be cheating but couldn't be sure and acted innocent like you and finally got caught by the system.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Metroidz

    Metroidz Server-Clearing Cynic

    Steam:

    VAC is aids and is probably the lowest form of cheat detection there is out there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    Completely valid point and probably the smartest thing you've ever said. I was not aware she was using silent aim and whether you choose to believe me is your decision. I will say that i stand by my word with regard to the demos sargenty provided, they were not enough evidence IMHO to ban somebody which is why i said in the post that a properly configured aimbot is really hard to spot and impossible to do so in spectator. Also, she only got caught because she wanted to. By this logic you can assume im only not caught because im not blatant as well and you would be wise to think that. Im not here to argue about my validity because it honestly looks suspicious with the amount of reports and stuff. I just think admins should be given a crash course or something about cheats.
     
  13. Metroidz

    Metroidz Server-Clearing Cynic

    Steam:

    You really shouldn't give CT any attention or credit. He's only here for the attention and you won't get anything of value out of him.
     
  14. samien

    samien Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    Thought he brought up something valid this time so i responded. He's not the only one with that opinion :)
     
  15. Cream Tea

    Cream Tea Legendary Skial King Legendary Mapper

    Steam:

    how about you stop shitposting
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Metroidz

    Metroidz Server-Clearing Cynic

    Steam:

    And actually to add to your post Samien. I'd REQUIRE that new admin apps must have made an accepted hackers report with video on the forums or to an admin. (Blatant cheater or legit/hiding)

    This would prove they knew what they were looking for and had to tools and know how to gather evidence.

    Reports for spamming/racism and such don't necessarily need demos and racists and goons are easily caught and a dime a dozen on tf2.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Luke

    Luke Trade Moderator Contributor

    Steam:

    Please don't take this thread off topic, go into unmod if you need to.
     
  18. Antamania

    Antamania Gaben's Own Aimbot Contributor

    Steam:

    I agree with most of the points here. I especially like Metroidz idea about them needing to submit video evidence of a hacker at some point. Unless they're trade admins of course.

    I think the point about Selkies is perfect. The evidence submitted wasn't enough to ban her on (as evidenced by her unban) until she started blatantly doing it anyway. I also think when it's someone like Samien, or selkies prior to her ban it should really need to be looked at by someone who is an exceptionally good sniper. Soo, for example, would be the right person to be looking at Samien demos.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Metroidz

    Metroidz Server-Clearing Cynic

    Steam:

    I'm sure if Miggy was still with us he'd have a lot to say about the subject.
     
  20. DaivdBaekr

    DaivdBaekr TF2 Admin Contributor

    Steam:

    It is too much overhead work to find unique demos with subtle aimbots for every application. There are not enough subtle ones for that purpose, anyway. Asking them about blatant ones seems like a waste of time.

    Metroidz's idea about requiring a resolved hacking report is good but I don't want to tell otherwise good applicants "go jump between servers until you find a blatant hacker to report".
     
    • Like Like x 1
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