Approved Sniper is too powerful in VSH right now.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by BigChapAlien, May 14, 2019.

  1. BigChapAlien

    BigChapAlien Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Hey all. I'm a regular to the Versus Saxton Hale server that Skial hosts (IP: 104.153.106.180:27016) and I had a suggestion to deal with Sniper, since I feel he is too powerful.

    Some context for those unfamiliar: most classes have a way of getting a lot of damage quickly. Soldier can Market Garden, Spy can backstab, Demoman can set himself up to always have crits or set a large sticky trap. Heavy with uber can do thousands if positioned and timed correctly. Sniper, however, is a class that relies on consistent damage as opposed to certain hits that do particularly high damage. To do this, the mod is setup so that Sniper does headshot damage on any hit he lands, at least for the stock Sniper, the AWP, and most other sniper rifles. This seems fine on paper, but I think this design has backfired because it has made Sniper too dangerous.

    It might seem fine since Demoman is also a class that does consistent damage as opposed to going for burst damage like Soldier and Spy. However, Sniper uses a long range hitscan weapon with no spread, whereas the Demoman is limited to certain ranges. The sniper rifle is also a much easier weapon to master than the grenade launcher, since, as Demoman, you have to account for the travel path of the projectile, Hale's momentum and movement patterns, as well as your own momentum. Sniper has to worry about none of this - he simply has to point and shoot. So it's very easy to rack up damage fairly quickly by either noscoping/quickscoping or charging all the way up. Either method is very effective for racking up a ton of damage. Sniper's unlocks are also great for helping him move around easily. Losing a bit of health to climb walls is no big deal for a class that gets one-shot anyways in this mode and using the Cozy Camper opens up even more opportunity to use this new mobility option.

    It wouldn't be so bad if the sniper rifle also didn't have immense knockback. The Sniper can completely alter Saxton's direction and velocity when he is in the air with a simple body shot; not just "Hale" as the boss, but Saxton in particular, tied for the heaviest and hardest to budge boss iirc. Vagineer and Christian Brutal Sniper are even more badly effected by this. The amount of knockback Sniper can easily inflict on the boss can cripple Super Jump, one of the boss's most vital assets, making it virtually impossible for them to deal with clusters of people or take down other key threats like Medic if the boss doesn't go for all the Snipers immediately.

    On top of all of this is that skial has a lot of really open maps which are very, very biased towards sniper. Toys, Dust Showdown, Weapons Depot, Jurassic, Egypt Spot, Streets and Urban Works are all favorite map choices in skial and they all have a very heavy Sniper bias. Urban Works had to be remade so Sniper couldn't be as dominant as he is, but the issue wasn't just the map. It was the class itself. Even older maps like Mann Co. HQ and Hakurei Shrine have serious sniper issues and Hale hemorrhages health if he doesn't deal with them right away.

    But the real cherry on top is that Sniper has no class limit on skial, despite a general consensus among experienced and regular VSH players that Sniper, relative to the other classes, is very low effort/high reward. In my time playing Sniper, I have never had an easier time getting a ton of damage. Almost all other classes have some sort of risk to get a lot of damage. Scout has to survive a long time or goomba. Soldier has to have proper directional control, prediction and timing to Market Garden consistently. Pyro is...Pyro. Spy needs to position himself carefully and take the risk of getting close to Hale. Sniper just needs to not be noticed, something any class can do fairly easily. Engineer needs to do this too, and his setup is much, much riskier and more noticable once it is all said and done. I don't understand why Engineer would have a class limit when there is so much more risk to him, whereas Sniper has much lower risk while getting much more consistent results.

    In my opinion, this should be tackled one of two ways. The first option is that Sniper has to headshot to get a ton of damage, and maybe bodyshots do increased damage but not headshot damage. It's difficult, but requires a fair bit of effort and isn't a free chunk out of Hale's health. The knockback should also be reduced if this route is taken. Sniper shouldn't have so much control over Hale's momentum. The second option is that a class limit is imposed on Sniper. I personally would say 2, but the general limit is 4. Sniper is one of the most powerful classes and to not give him a limit can hurt a lot on some maps.

    TL;DR Sniper does too much damage for too little effort on a server where many of the maps are biased towards him, and he does not have a class limit. When there are multiple Snipers, killing them quickly is too important to Hale's game plan. He should either have his damage and knockback reduced, or there should be a class limit imposed on him.
     
  2. uppe-r

    uppe-r Positively Inhumane Poster Contributor

    Steam:

    I somewhat agree. Maybe there should be a class limit?
     
  3. True Darkian

    True Darkian Spectacularly Lethal Soldier

    Steam:

    I agree, and it's painful.

    They are one of the worst parts of what I call: "bullcrap knockback"

    I don't mind the damage, But I hate the knockback.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. Feral Angel

    Feral Angel TF2 Admin

    Steam:

    +1

    It would so great if we had a class limit on sniper, as said in this suggestion it’s overpowered and Hale most the time can’t get to all the snipers. 4 snipers should be the limit just like other classes that are limited. It would be fair for us all. Plus once Hale notices him and get close to them, they all scatter like roaches and you can’t get them all at once. Also with the knockback, it’s incredibly too powerful. Though it’s supposed to benefit the sniper, it’s just puts a great disadvantage towards the Hale. When the Hale even tries to get to the sniper and all he got to do is simply no scope and the the Hale loses his momentum, which is rather frustrating.

    As for the engies, I’m glad they have a limit because sometimes hales don’t think to get them first or even notice them. Once they are set up they become a powerful team, now imagine if there was no limit, that’ll just be too hard and difficult for other hales. As for heavies, they are most powerful when they 1. Have good aim, 2. Have a medic, 3. Work together. We’ve all been there when more than 2 heavies worked together in military area (scary times).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. BigChapAlien

    BigChapAlien Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    Agreed. I had forgotten that in my post. Snipers are ironically very good at running away and Hale will sometimes have to make serious commitments or even rage to ensure the Sniper's death.

    I also felt I miscommunicated my feelings on Engineer - I meant to say that if Engineer has a class limit, Sniper absolutely should as well.

    Also, yeah, two Heavies or a Heavy with a Medic can be a serious threat. As a Heavy player myself and someone who spends most of their time as Heavy on VSH, I'm aware that Heavy definitely has perks and, with strong aim, can also alter Hale's momentum. But, Heavy is slow and has to be careful. If he cannot make it to where he wants to be, he has a hard time doing damage or even just surviving. He is very effective when you play him well - been raged plenty because of this - but that requires some practice which I feel, in comparison to Sniper, makes Heavy much more balanced as a class.
     
  6. Pansmith

    Pansmith Truly Feared Pyro Contributor Master Mapper

    Steam:

    +1
     
  7. Sniffy

    Sniffy TF2 Admin

    Steam:

    This right here, Class limitation.
    +1
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Stove™

    Stove™ Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:

    +1
    One question I have is this: will this also apply to the Freak Fortress 2 server? I'll still hold my +1 vote for a class limit on Sniper (they can be quite a hassle on bigger maps like Dust Showdown), but I'm just curious as to whether or not this will apply to both VSH and FF2.
     
  9. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer Gore-Spattered Heavy Contributor

    Steam:

  10. BigChapAlien

    BigChapAlien Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Steam:

    I do not play much FF2, but if Sniper is as powerful there as he is in VSH, then I will vouch for a limit or nerf in both modes.
     
  11. Stove™

    Stove™ Somewhat Threatening Sniper

    Steam:

    It would probably depend on what other people that play in the FF2 server would think of a class limit on Sniper. As someone who usually frequents the FF2 server, I wouldn't mind a class limit on Sniper. But I would need to see what others would think of this idea.
     
  12. Droplet

    Droplet Totally Ordinary Human

    Steam:

    +1
    I think he's really op because apart from doing tons of damage without being in the Hales sight, he is also able to run away if ever found out with the help of the wall jump plugin. The plugin also helps him to reach rather high spots in maps which is hard for the Hale to reach or completely impossible without a super duper jump( which the Hale can only get in a limited number of maps). The Hale is completely done for if even 5 snipers manage to reach spots such as those before he does.
    My suggestion would be to get rid of snipers wall jump plugin entirely from VSH. That would make sniper an easier target to kill while also making him a useful and viable class. He'd have the ability to do tons of damage in a short amount of time but he'd almost guarantee his death if he's ever found.
    As for the idea of class limits, if that were to be implemented I'd say 4 would be a fair number. The class limit could also be implemented into FF2.
     
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