Approved Requesting a few surf maps to be added.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kingfin, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. kingfin

    kingfin Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Hey, there aren't too many surf maps on the surf server, and seeing as now it has a good, consistent player count, I figured it might be nice to add some maps to the server.

    Here are just a few that would be nice:

    surf_overlook_v2 - https gamebanana com maps 174647
    surf_overcast - https gamebanana com maps 124767
    surf_nameless - https gamebanana com maps 200500

    And me and my pal exer like to make surf maps, and would love to make surf maps for the server as long as it has a good playerbase. Thanks.
     
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  2. RenZ

    RenZ Positively Inhumane Poster

    Steam:
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  3. kingfin

    kingfin Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Thanks!
     
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  4. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    More maps doesn't mean better. I am pretty sure we tried those maps before and they were not popular.
     
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  5. exer

    exer Scarcely Lethal Noob

    It's better than only playing Greatriver, 10x, and Revolution endlessly. Also, I don't remember Nameless ever being on the surf server.
     
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  6. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    There are 9 maps on the server, not 3. If only 3 get picked all the time, then its because people like them better than the other maps. I see the same thing happen on Saxton Hale and Deathrun. People always say they want 100 different maps, but people only vote for a small handful.

    Which is why having 20+ maps is useless.

    Maybe you think we only have 3 maps because only 3 random ones are shown at end of map vote? If you want another map, then type !nominate.
     
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  7. exer

    exer Scarcely Lethal Noob

    You don't lose anything by having more than 9 maps do you? Does it cost extra to have more? I realize that only a few maps will be picked the majority of the time no matter how many maps you have on the server, but the ones that *do* always get picked aren't as good as maps I've seen become very popular on other servers. Also, there are only a handful of regulars on the server at a time, which means the majority of players on the server at any given time will vote randomly, not necessarily based on objective quality.
     
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  8. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    The problem is that most people are too lazy to vote, and if it switches to a map they don't like, then half the server leaves when the map changes.

    I think the main reason why our Saxton Hale and Deathrun servers became the top servers while we were far from the 1st to host these modes and have no unique bosses, is because we adhere to the principle of having fewer but the most popular maps only. Quality over quantity.
     
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  9. exer

    exer Scarcely Lethal Noob

    If you're looking for quality then get rid of 10x and replace it with a better map. No one will miss it. There's a bug where a door (in a heavily trafficked area of the map) emits an extremely loud, headache-inducing sound when opened or closed. I think it only ever gets played because people vote for it without knowing what it is.
     
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  10. Jermaphobe

    Jermaphobe Moderator Contributor Legendary Mapper

    I don't see any suggested better maps that Skial hasn't tried before
     
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  11. kingfin

    kingfin Scarcely Lethal Noob

    Have you tried nameless before?
     
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  12. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    And this is why I can't take individual suggestions seriously.

    surf_10x_tf2_complete is by far the most popular surf map in existance. It has 4x as popular as the 2nd most popular surf map.
     
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  13. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    We used to have a lot more maps than we did before. I don't remember if we had your exact map before, but we probably did. The textures don't look so good to be honest.
     
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  14. RenZ

    RenZ Positively Inhumane Poster

    Steam:
    I mean if you want to, you can try your hand at making maps. As long as you find out how to use forge, you can build a surf map and then see if the community likes it.
     
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  15. kingfin

    kingfin Scarcely Lethal Noob

    While I certainly wouldn't call 10x the most popular surf map, I gather that the idea is to attract players based off of the amount of traffic a given map yields and not map pool quality. I mean, if it keeps the server alive, so be it, right? So if you've tried nameless before, and apparently it seems you have, then if it's not effective, that's fine. Though unfortunately it seems the surf scene is essentially dead, so maps of actual quality don't really thrive at this point in time anymore, such as halloween_v3. The lack of active surf discussion here kinda explains why maps such as 10x and greatriver remain the most "popular."

    Thanks, but as I mentioned I've been making maps, actually for a few years now. It's awesome that quack_v2 was added; It makes me happy it was given a chance. I was considering making more again, seeing as how surf has become more popular (at least only on skial), depending on if the owners want to change up or even expand their map pool. But if the owners are seeking popularity rather than quality (which makes sense if you want your player-base to be consistent), then I may not.
     
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  16. exer

    exer Scarcely Lethal Noob

    I understand you run your servers like a business. I've looked at the stats regarding average player count on the surf server and there was a spike in numbers in just the past few months; it's actually the highest it's ever been. Does that spike coincide with when the map pool was culled to the most popular maps? If so, I would argue that it's because the more popular a map has been in the past, the more likely it is that people will recognize it and join the server. I also argue this is not a long-term strategy.

    Agreed. Having 50 Saxton Hale maps that are essentially just reskins of each other makes no sense, but like you said, there are only 9 maps on surf, not 20. I think the key is having a few maps that differ meaningfully from one another, which is something surf maps generally do well. We're not asking you to add a massive map pool, just a few more to bring some variety into the mix. Adding maps you've had before can work because the environment is different, and the server has a consistent population, most of whom are new players. They're willing to give any map a shot, that's why they're on a custom server to begin with. Regulars got excited for Quack_v2 when it was added, because people get excited for new maps. If you added, say, Overcast to the map pool, it may prove to be very popular. It's kind of a classic. It's no harder than Rainbow, and I've seen it become popular on two different servers.

    Honestly, Kingfin and I just love surf. We like the plugins Skial runs (essentially just spawn protection and !nominate) and we want to see surf thrive there. I see where you're coming from, but I feel that reaching a balance between a conservative map pool and meaningful variety will result in the most beneficial outcome for the surf server. Thanks for your consideration and for reading these walls of text.

    (TL;DR i agree that more maps doesn't equal good but adding the right maps now will extend the longevity of the server)
     
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  17. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    I'm not sure why you think I am running the servers like a business, and even if I did, why does that mean that's not the best choice? Why would we want to put unpopular maps on the server?

    I don't know of any case where the most popular maps were not the best quality-wise.

    The increase in the surf population was probably mostly due to Christmas vacation and moving the server to our custom network. But the dynamic of people being too lazy to vote and leaving on unpopular maps is a very real thing that I've observed in the past 10 years of running skial. It is not a temporary thing.

    I just went ahead and added nameless, since it seems like you want it to be added since kingfin made it. 1 less popular map isn't going to break the server. But in the future we'll only be considering new maps unless the stats show otherwise.
     
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  18. exer

    exer Scarcely Lethal Noob

    I shouldn't have told you how to run your servers, I'm sorry. You have a lot more experience there than I do.
    Thank you for adding Nameless. (EDIT: reading the stickied thread cleared this up) N̶a̶m̶e̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶Q̶u̶a̶c̶k̶_̶v̶2̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ ̶u̶p̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶v̶e̶r̶s̶,̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶U̶t̶o̶p̶i̶a̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶b̶i̶d̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶W̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶s̶t̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶1̶0̶+̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶f̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶v̶e̶r̶s̶,̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶ ̶p̶o̶o̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶a̶r̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶u̶n̶f̶a̶i̶r̶.̶ ̶W̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶w̶i̶s̶e̶,̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶a̶r̶?̶ ̶T̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶l̶u̶d̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶s̶h̶l̶y̶-̶m̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶t̶u̶r̶e̶.̶ ̶M̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶i̶o̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶a̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶m̶a̶p̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶p̶u̶l̶a̶r̶?̶
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  19. Bottiger

    Bottiger Administrator

    Steam:
    We only track the popularity of maps in the last week. We do not calculate the popularity of maps over the past several years. If a map was popular 10 years ago, that doesn't mean it is popular now.

    If someone shows me a map that is relatively new, I may try it if it looks decent. A new map will have little to no stats recorded for it.

    If someone shows me a map that is 5 years old and no one is running it anymore, I will probably not want to try it.
     
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