Nikolai The Conqueror

Mildly Menacing Medic
Look in this past month or so bunny has just been overpowered and any “balancing” only half fixes the previous problem and introduces a swarm of new ones. Bunny is constantly being pushed more and more into becoming this god of a hale due to him apparently having a low WR overall. However anyone and i do mean anyone who’s played the game for more than 1 map can attest to the fact bunny is just plain overpowered and the strongest boss in vsh right now. All that would be needed to put him back into his place is revert him back to the 195 dmg bottle and jarate eggs which he had for quite a while. While that is what i would prefer to see any major acting nerf could only fix this. Hope this gets approved or at least considered for the future till then best wishes to everyone.
 

Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
He went rng egg kills op to what even is fearing me on the opposite side of the map, what...
 

Zeo

TF2 Admin
Contributor
He went rng egg kills op to what even is fearing me on the opposite side of the map, what...
Now it’s just the golf club and eggs that barely any damage. The bunny sucked originally even with the eggs doing a lot of damage and was only good in cinema. Because of that everyone wanted him nerfed to hell and now Bottiger is stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to appease everyone who doesn’t understand statistics.

Bottiger can you post the current win rate for bunny because I imagine it’s below 20 percent. But everyone’s go to say he’s balanced now.
 

Seminal Inhalation

Australian Skial God
Contributor
Bunny gets buff - "HE'S TOO OP NERF NOW!"
Bunny gets debuff - "HE'S USELESS BUFF NOW!"

Honestly from what i've seen he either needs:
A. To be removed altogether since nobody can agree on him.
B. A complete rework from the ground-up.
 

Zeo

TF2 Admin
Contributor
No what needs to happen is people need to understand a hale can’t be perfectly balanced around each map.
 

Zeke Aileron

Wicked Nasty Engineer
Contributor
No what needs to happen is people need to understand a hale can’t be perfectly balanced around each map.
Well yeah, and the 1 map he primarily shines in, he can't even win on that now, so its pretty bad, and now that he has the Nine Iron for 202 damage again, High ping players can once again abuse him like before, eh.
 

Bottiger

Administrator
People need to realize that in order for a boss to be balanced, they need to die. The only way to buff a boss is to make it able to kill people better.

Anything that is actually effective, people deem to be "annoying" because it actually kills them. Anything that doesn't work they say it is "fair". VSH 1 has been broken for so long that most people don't want to play boss anymore so they don't care about how bad bosses are.

Example is when we changed vagineer to the agility rune, people thought he was "balanced" now when it basically does nothing, the speed boost on it is broken because it is overridden by the default vsh code that makes boss speed depend on hp.

Actually at this point it is probably best to stop entertaining regs that think they know better because every year there's a reg I have to keep explaining basic balancing concepts like this to. People keep asking for boss nerfs so bosses can never 1 shot anyone, and then it becomes impossible for bosses to kill anyone except by abusing super jump.
 
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True Darkian

Positively Inhumane Poster
Contributor
People need to realize that in order for a boss to be balanced, they need to die. The only way to buff a boss is to make it able to kill people better.

Anything that is actually effective, people deem to be "annoying" because it actually kills them. Anything that doesn't work they say it is "fair". VSH 1 has been broken for so long that most people don't want to play boss anymore so they don't care about how bad bosses are.

Example is when we changed vagineer to the agility rune, people thought he was "balanced" now when it basically does nothing, the speed boost on it is broken because it is overridden by the default vsh code that makes boss speed depend on hp.

Actually at this point it is probably best to stop entertaining regs that think they know better because every year there's a reg I have to keep explaining basic balancing concepts like this to. People keep asking for boss nerfs so bosses can never 1 shot anyone, and then it becomes impossible for bosses to kill anyone except by abusing super jump.
What's up with Bunny scaring absolutely everyone in the map regardless of where they are + including the bunny himself during a rage?
 

Xerʘ

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
To be perfectly honest the problem wasn't even necessarily the bunny himself. Yes he's annoying, yes crit eggs are literal dog shit but he was really only "insanely broken" on 1 map. Why not get rid of the map. If a champion in league of legends is broken because of an item he takes they nerf him not the item which would effect X other number or champs. The exact same concept can be applied here. take the map out of the rotation where he can be abused and voila the complaints about how broken ( for the most part ) are gone, plus the map is a trash heap in the first place. Is there also no middle ground at which the eggs dmg can be nerf'd? like is it 2 options, insane or 0 dmg. it was bad before how easy it was to die to 1 egg but now they do absolutely nothing.

Another problem you have is that a lot of the people on that server are just simply put, bad. Yes there are obviously people that are not but easily the mass majority are just less skilled players. Ofc the EB with this nerf would be absolute garbage, 1 for the reason stated above that he was only actually "insanely broken" in 1 map, 2 now that these lesser skilled players cant hold e and win the 40%+ (whatever the old win rate was) they were before. it also doesn't help that the hour I played on was mili area then mili area extended which is a red sided map and easily 90% of player were playing the bunny and ofc losing making the w.r even worse.

The super jump spam is now only coming up as a problem due to again, people are worse than they used to be years ago. it was never a problem back then and was never complained about because people either knew how to deal with it or just didnt care. Now it has to be delt with by making jumping horrible because this new wave of players can not deal with it which IMO is a little sad.

Anything that is actually effective, people deem to be "annoying" because it actually kills them. Anything that doesn't work they say it is "fair".
I agree 100% with this statement, which is why it is impossible to appease everyone.
Actually at this point it is probably best to stop entertaining regs that think they know better because every year there's a reg I have to keep explaining basic balancing concepts like this to. People keep asking for boss nerfs so bosses can never 1 shot anyone, and then it becomes impossible for bosses to kill anyone except by abusing super jump.
This brings me back to the current pool of regulars i stated above are worse players than previous seasons and why i agree, yes you should not be listening to them when it comes to balance. The boss should almost always 1 shot with the melee besides the obvious exceptions a couple being the heavy, demos with sheilds, over heals on some classes, etc. with the bunny, no i do not think his eggs should have the ability to honestly kill people at all in normal circumstances unless you get unlucky with the spread or in a small room. Buildings sure, but not any class. my honest suggestion which i don't even know would be possible would be somehow make the bunny able to use melee sooner while raging but keep the low dmg eggs so it assists him in being able to 1 shot the tankier classes (WITH HIS MELEE) along with fearing like normal. That to me is the biggest problem is the time when he is raging and he has to hold the GL to shoot them and is why IMO its so hard to balance the eggs.

I've always understood that the game should be a 50/50 when it comes to W/L but when you look at it in this perspective. Lets say the server is full and its filled completely with all insanely god tier players, will hale win 50% of the time? No, will he win sometimes? sure 50%? No. Now lets put 32 mediocre players with the same ideology, Would hale win 50% of the time? I'd say yes or at least close enough for it not to be a huge deal IMO. Again but with garbage can tier players, same ideology. Hale win 50%? No but for equally the same and different reason than the god tier players. In the god tier lobby 31 good players will easily be able to band together to take out this player even if they are very good. In the trash lobby its simply put 31 brains are better than 1 in that case, same can be said for the god tier lobby but that 1 person can make more sound decision making, making it easier for the good player to win. The bad player is just going to lose due sheer brute force. I would argue in the god tier lobby the W/L would be more equal than the bad lobby. you know which group i think the players of today are.

When it comes to balancing it truly will be impossible to make the game 50/50, hale is currently very favored to the players that dont jump and spam e ( every 3 seconds i might add ) which is where they get most or even all their kills lmfao. The problem with this is that that playstyle in of itself is a formula to lose in the hands of a bad player. people with half a brain can just turn around and run when hale rages or try to juke etc making it easy for bad players to never succeed. its as simple as not being able to aim very well that makes it still difficult. Mediocre players make it work a lot easier because they're simply better at the game and its mechanics. A very good player does the same method so easily that he can basically win every single time. With all this is mind, the reason the W/L is lower is because there are way more bad players than mediocre or good players. I wish there was an easier way to make hale more "noob friendly" so even the newest of new have a chance to win but also keeping it challenging and fun for the others but its not possible, clearly unless massive revamps are done.

Literally the only 2 problems i have and have ever had since semi returning is 1, cinema and how often its played even tho its basically a trade map? 2, using hales core mechanic has a noticeable downside. No i dont count jump cooldown as a downside. I really wish it didnt and there was a way to negate spamming while also it not having a substantial downside like it currently does.
 

Bottiger

Administrator
Because the boss wasn't "insanely broken" even on 1 map. It had a 60% win rate. Removing the map just because of 1 bug on 1 boss on 1 map is silly. People clearly like the map despite all the claims from some people that everyone hates it.

This brings me back to the current pool of regulars i stated above are worse players than previous seasons and why i agree, yes you should not be listening to them when it comes to balance.

The game can't be balanced for 1% of players. That's how you kill your game. This game is not an esport and even esports need to make the game enjoyable for the vast majority of players and not force everyone to avoid playing boss.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but the number of people with noboss on was at 50% and rising before I started buffing bosses. That is unsustainable. It is getting tiring for me to repeat this over and over again to people who think we don't know how to balance and that it would be 10x better if we just did everything they suggested.
 
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