Meowcenary

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
TL;DR: Hale's current damage reduction/health set up on deathrun is preventing the round from ending on various maps.

On dr_4halls if someone reaches the end of the map and chooses the option to kill hale the map drops him in water that's supposed to kill him, but hales damage reduction is so high it does no damage to him. Players are then forced to voteslay hale to end the round. Trolls figured this out and regularly choose the kill option to delay the round intentionally

Another map (not sure what the name is off the top of my head) puts hale and one other player in a 'humuliation room' where the player is supposed to kill hale. Depending on their class they'll have to potentially spend several minutes melee spamming hale to kill him. That's if he even holds still - if he moves around to avoid the player it takes even longer.

On dr_simpsons if players choose the 'knife' option they're put in a arena to fight hale but the majority of the time people just friendly until time runs out because they have no chance of killing hale unless they have several spies regularly backstabbing him which usually doesn't work out because most of the time hale just kills those attacking him and friendlies with the rest

New maps added in may end up having similar issues
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
+1

many DR maps are built either originally for GMOD, or built with in mind, a custom FF2 boss I remember seeing that has low health and little-to-no damage output.

having the deathrun plugin set Hale's health to no more than 100 (with an exception for dr_office due to the first trap) should fix this on all counts
 

Luke

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
+1

having the deathrun plugin set Hale's health to no more than 100 (with an exception for dr_office due to the first trap) should fix this on all counts

I think 100 is too low though, maybe 400/500?
 

Luke

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
yea. maybe 1,000 at the highest
1000 hp with or without damage reduction?

One of the things you have to consider is what happens if a single player is left, it's hard to balance when you consider that on some maps there may be 10+ people alive, when on others there may only be one. Should they realistically be able to kill Hale on their own? Is it possible to make Hale's health scale with the number of people remaining even?
 

Meowcenary

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
There's only two times when hale is being attacked which is during combat mini games or when he's supposed to be killed by someone else because someone won the map and chose the kill option

Combat mini games are just bad in TF2 death run because the mini games are usually designed with counter strike/gmod in mind, not TF2, and it either ends in hale destroying everyone or lots of friendlying

I don't think balancing hales HP around the fighting mini games is necessary, just make it to where anyone can practically oneshot him so people don't have to watch hale friendly until the timer runs out
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
from a mapmaker's perspective, any humiliation rooms can be handled better if the map author adds in a game_round_win entity that triggers ~10 seconds after the humiliation starts, declaring a RED team victory. that way, even if the humiliation takes forever to actually kill Hale, the round will be over quickly
 

Pedro the fabulous

Totally Ordinary Human
Contributor
Master Mapper
from a mapmaker's perspective, any humiliation rooms can be handled better if the map author adds in a game_round_win entity that triggers ~10 seconds after the humiliation starts, declaring a RED team victory. that way, even if the humiliation takes forever to actually kill Hale, the round will be over quickly
For our maps, they can be modified to just have those entities at those minigames if hale's HP isn't lowered.

One of the things you have to consider is what happens if a single player is left, it's hard to balance when you consider that on some maps there may be 10+ people alive, when on others there may only be one. Should they realistically be able to kill Hale on their own? Is it possible to make Hale's health scale with the number of people remaining even?
Hale's health can be scaled (look at VSH, his health depends on the amount of players)
 

Meowcenary

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
For our maps, they can be modified to just have those entities at those minigames if hale's HP isn't lowered.


Hale's health can be scaled (look at VSH, his health depends on the amount of players)

The scaling of health is based on the amount of players in the server, not the amount of players currently alive

While it works for regular VSH it doesn't work so well in deathrun because 1 guy could end up having to grind down 30k health

I assume its better to use a fixed number for his health in death run. Scaling seems unnecessary and if there's a ton of people left alive and he falls in water that's supposed to kill him he'll only take longer to die
 

Pedro the fabulous

Totally Ordinary Human
Contributor
Master Mapper
The scaling of health is based on the amount of players in the server, not the amount of players currently alive

While it works for regular VSH it doesn't work so well in deathrun because 1 guy could end up having to grind down 30k health

I assume its better to use a fixed number for his health in death run. Scaling seems unnecessary and if there's a ton of people left alive and he falls in water that's supposed to kill him he'll only take longer to die
The scaling didn't necessarily have to be strong. Regardless, just using a lower number the entire time is probably better, and if possible, the damage reduction tweaked.
 

Dolan Trump

Somewhat Threatening Sniper
Not sure if this is possible, but perhaps a plugin which automatically kills Hale after, say, 60 seconds passes after starting certain minigames.

Also, Knife of Simpsons is simply terrible. Given the map itself is so short, it's easy for some jerk (which tend to be most of the people on deathrun, tbh) to make it like half the map time or more. I'd like to see it edited so that all surviving players are teleported to that room (there's also an exploit on that map that lets players survive indefinitely) or better yet, trashed entirely and replaced with something else.
 

Bottiger

Administrator
Any damage that hale takes from players is reduced because there are a bunch of maps that have holes in them where players can shoot through.

If Hale takes damage from the environment (ie humiliation trap) then it will do full damage.

It is done this way so we don't have to edit every single map we use.
 

Sakiko

Moderator
Contributor
Lots of the Deathrun maps have issues.

I have been nudging tea to fix various things but there is also problem of not wanting to have 200 maps that users have to download all the time.

There are many i would love to get fixed.

Some of the simpson map issues was fixed but yes the staying out of the playing area on hale part is bad
 

Meowcenary

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
Any damage that hale takes from players is reduced because there are a bunch of maps that have holes in them where players can shoot through.

If Hale takes damage from the environment (ie humiliation trap) then it will do full damage.

It is done this way so we don't have to edit every single map we use.

I understand why its done the way it is but there's still issues with it. Please read over the examples in my post if you haven't, there's various maps where people are forced to voteslay hale because the environment isn't killing him when its supposed to and there's all sorts of other issues its causing

While some maps do have some holes where they can damage hale they seem to be few in number and rare, but the issues the current set up causes is a lot more detrimental IMO
 

Sakiko

Moderator
Contributor
This change has now Allowed hale to be killed by a simple sticky bomb or even sneezing on him.

This is now allowing users to kill hale on Sawmill and aztec maps and unable to kill players or risk dying.

Also pirate adventure now you can shoot hale through the grating at the platforms and kill him.
Humiliations insta kill him and its generally not good for the DR community.

This is a bad decison and i think it should be reversed asap.
 

Meowcenary

Gaben's Own Aimbot
Contributor
This change has now Allowed hale to be killed by a simple sticky bomb or even sneezing on him.

This is now allowing users to kill hale on Sawmill and aztec maps and unable to kill players or risk dying.

Also pirate adventure now you can shoot hale through the grating at the platforms and kill him.
Humiliations insta kill him and its generally not good for the DR community.

This is a bad decison and i think it should be reversed asap.

@Bottiger looks like I was wrong there were a lot more spots you could shoot at hale than I realized, my bad
 

Sakiko

Moderator
Contributor
Can also add probably Minecraft map can sticky the walls to do the same.

We need to tweak the maps to make them work for us sadly then tweaking stats.

Same as users want the spy standard watch allowing them to go stealth to be removed.