Keep engi from building on turbine mid

[Obli]

I don't really know where to post this, so I'll just post it here.

I've played over 1k hours of Turbine alone, I'm aware a lot of people also play this map a lot and love it, but we can all agree on one thing:

Engineers on turbine mid RUIN games.


We all know what I'm speaking of here. Engineers who place sentries on the crates on mid, or on stairs, or on battlements.... Forcing the enemy team to turtle in, denying them access to mid and subsequently making them play like ants in their spawn.

I know that with a demo and a medic, you can easily wipe off an engi nest if not multiple from mid. But it's just not that simple. People RARELY play medic to counter engis on turbine mid. Very often you have people that aren't coordinated enough to do anything about the engis on Turbine. Sometimes, you have more than three sentries on mid. Community servers aren't filled with the best players, and while I'm not sanctioning anyone on not being good, the point I'm making here is that it's just not as simple as 'get a demo to destroy their nest'.

What makes engies building their shit on turbine mid such a nightmare isn't exactly the sentry itself. It's how you, as a decent player or a player of any sort really, cannot get out of your spawn because:

A)Your teammates aren't good enough as a whole to play together and destroy sentries
B)Two or three engies decided that it would be a good, fun idea to spam the map with minis and/or sentries with teleporters right on mid.
C)You just lack the manpower to do anything about it, or the other team is stacked to oblivion.

I don't hate engi. I think it's a pretty solid defense classs. But it absolutely ruins the fun on turbine mid. Isn't it possible from making Turbine mid a no-build zone through a plugin or something? Any thoughts?

 

[Defibyoulater]

The reason why people like turbine with engineers is because one team tries their hardest to hold middle while the team holds their base, both trying to break each others (defensive) lines.

Engineers and sentries define those lines, so many people wouldnt want them removed (from mid).

 

[Obli]

The reason why people like turbine with engineers is because one team tries their hardest to hold middle while the team holds their base, both trying to break each others (defensive) lines.

Engineers and sentries define those lines, so many people wouldnt want them removed (from mid).

I can understand that logic working out when an engi defends the intel IN the intel room. I don't understand minimizing the defense line by camping mid. Any seasoned turbine player knows that a team just doesn't 'tries their hardest'. As I said, you have tons of new/unexperienced players playing in the turbine servers. They can't 'try their hardest', more often than not, they end up being spawncamped because the other team has mid camped, which gives them more offensive ground.

I honestly don't buy your argument here. I don't think it applies to engies camping mid until their team caps the intel enough times. I'm not saying REMOVE ENGIS FROM TURBINE SERVERS, I'm just saying, don't make it so that one person wanting to have fun ruins the entire server's fun, or at least, the fun of 12 people on the enemy team that can't do shit.

You can't try your hardest when half your team can't coordinate and 1/4 are too busy fending off the incoming attackers.

 

[Meowcenary]

I understand where you're coming from but I have a feeling not everyone agrees

I could see a lot of unhappy people if this suggestion were to go through

 

[Sakiko]

Engineers camp middle? simple team gets a few brain cells together send out a few spys 1 or 2 to anger the pyros and get them to chase(or scouts) and the others backstab and sap sentries while the rest of team push with uber.
Option 2: Heavy medic x2 push front and snipers snipe down the engies/sgs from the base exits.

Not that hard to force a win and take mid, you just need to get your team to follow tactics but that is the result of public servers you get the good with the bad.

And tbh the same argument can be said for dust bowl stage 2 why should engies be allowed to defend first cap or place anything outside of the first cap area like the tunnels the small roof top just right outside of blue spawn (same as in the mid argument above), I have seen 2 sgs placed facing blue spawn on stage 3 and one to the left exit turtling the blue team the entire round.

Do not think this needs to be approved as a few can't figure out how to win against a few sentry guns on one map as we will end up banning engineers from all maps we play to make it easy mode for some.

 

[KinCryos]

sounds to me like OP wants things to be in a state of eternal stalemate. usually when things get too one-sided the round ends quickly

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

it's more of a problem with the map than an issue with the class. I'm pretty sure most players know the map isn't exactly well designed and they're okay with it.

sounds to me like OP wants things to be in a state of eternal stalemate.

isn't turbine (along with all other ctf maps) already an eternal stalemate?

 

[Sakiko]

Oh i should also add i spent a few rounds my self just going in as a SPY with dead ringer and grabbing the intel and walking it back to base little by little past their sgs being dominated by everyone but winning the game as they tried to keep the intel safe with their sgs as i strolled past taking it 1 meter at a time to base.

Sadly next round the other team copied my tactics but hay ho the army of pyros camping base did their best.

Sadly gamers now day wish to put zero effort into trying anything.

 

[Meowcenary]

it's more of a problem with the map than an issue with the class. I'm pretty sure most players know the map isn't exactly well designed and they're okay with it.


isn't turbine (along with all other ctf maps) already an eternal stalemate?

The maps are designed around 24 players and stock respawn times

On 32 slot fast respawn servers it really unbalances the map

 

[shoooooooooooooooo]

The maps are designed around 24 players and stock respawn times

On 32 slot fast respawn servers it really unbalances the map

i still think it's a poorly designed map due to each team having very limited options to get into mid and a sentry gun can cover multiple options, if not all of them.

 

[Meowcenary]

i still think it's a poorly designed map due to each team having very limited options to get into mid and a sentry gun can cover multiple options, if not all of them.

Yea I agree

There's a pro version of the map with more flank routes but i dunno if players would like it

 

[Obli]

Engineers camp middle? simple team gets a few brain cells together send out a few spys 1 or 2 to anger the pyros and get them to chase(or scouts) and the others backstab and sap sentries while the rest of team push with uber.
Option 2: Heavy medic x2 push front and snipers snipe down the engies/sgs from the base exits.

Not that hard to force a win and take mid, you just need to get your team to follow tactics but that is the result of public servers you get the good with the bad.

And tbh the same argument can be said for dust bowl stage 2 why should engies be allowed to defend first cap or place anything outside of the first cap area like the tunnels the small roof top just right outside of blue spawn (same as in the mid argument above), I have seen 2 sgs placed facing blue spawn on stage 3 and one to the left exit turtling the blue team the entire round.

Do not think this needs to be approved as a few can't figure out how to win against a few sentry guns on one map as we will end up banning engineers from all maps we play to make it easy mode for some.

Again, and with due respect, I am aware that a COORDINATED team can push away engies from camping mid. I do it from time to time when there's a medic that's willing to uber me. But, many many many times, there is no such thing as 'coordination' in a pub; many many times, the team that has a camping engi also has a powerful soldier/heavy/demo-medic combo that absolutely rapes. So you either put all your effort in killing them (which is feasible if you know how to land your shots) or you put all your effort in killing the engies, only for their team to push you back. I know where you stand on this situation, though, but I'm only posting this to make my point clearer.

I think that we're looking at this waaaaaaay too arbitrarily; you're completely forgetting that the engineer has an entire team in front of him, that keeps pushing you into spawn and punishes you for doing ANYTHING to the engi. Spies can't get shit on camping engies if they have a strong combo. Even if YOUR team has a strong combo, it doesn't work out because you're on the defensive and people are swarming your intel room.

I have no problem when the game is 'fair' to an extent, where a team is coordinated and can push back against an engi and his team. No problems with that. But very often, that's simply not the case.

You can't change people being new/bad/uncoordinated. But you can change engies camping mid by making mid a no-camp zone. Or upgrading the turbine servers to the pro version, which provides WAAAAAY more versatility and angles to doing, well, everything.

sounds to me like OP wants things to be in a state of eternal stalemate. usually when things get too one-sided the round ends quickly

Sounds to me like you completely missed the point and are making an oversimplification of my point based on your simplistic deduction. No, I don't want to be in a state of 'eternal stalemate', I just don't find it fair that one person should be able to ruin the fun of an entire team simply because they wanted to 'have fun and rescue ranger engie on blue/red crate turbine mid'. It's not fair for the opposing team. It forces them to turtle in and creates an eternal stalemate, which is what I'm fighting, that, and the unfairness that just cannot be treated with an uncoordinated team. And honestly, it's a pub, you can't blame people for not being coordinated.

 

[Meowcenary]

I suggested the pro version of the map which may help a little with the engie problem

https://www.skial.com/threads/turbine_pro-for-turbine-servers.72784/

 

[Tyknighter]

Now coming from a guy who does not really play a whole lot of CTF I can see where things can get out of hand at the mid point and all but if we are talking trying to remove a class that might not go so well. Now I will be honest I do like Turbine and I played the Pro version and it sorta suffers from the main problem. Now how about a class cap engineer that could work but who knows.

 

[KinCryos]

you're completely forgetting that the engineer has an entire team in front of him, that keeps pushing you into spawn and punishes you for doing ANYTHING to the engi.

It forces them to turtle in and creates an eternal stalemate

choose one; when one team is stuck in spawn, their intel is easy pickings, because it is in a separate room

 

[Obli]

choose one; when one team is stuck in spawn, their intel is easy pickings, because it is in a separate room

My original point implied that teams were stuck in Spawn and in the intel room. I'm not discussing teams being spawncamped as it's not a frequent issue. You can move freely in your 'spawn' (which is really the only nomination I have for the area that surrounds the spawn area up to the exit to mid down the stairs). It implied that the weakened team couldn't access mid, and there isn't that much to play with inside the red/blu base.

Also you're completely ignoring how unfair it is for 12 people to have their fun ruined because some guy wanted to camp mid with a sentry and thought it was entertaining to shoot arrows from a distance while his aimbot does everything for him.

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

You don't know how to destroy a sentry, so you want to ban engineers who are just playing the game and not even exploiting or completely limit where they're allowed to play?

 

[Obli]

You don't know how to destroy a sentry, so you want to ban engineers who are just playing the game and not even exploiting or completely limit where they're allowed to play?

Again, here is someone that hasn't even read a damn word from the thread. I said many times that I have no problems with engi as a class, nor with sentries. I can destroy sentries just fine. It's just that it takes a collective and coordinated effort to destroy an engi's nest when his entire team backs him up and keeps you from ever going to mid.
Oh, yes, they are just 'playing the game'. It's as if they're not ruining anyone's fun, it's as if their own fun does not make you have a shitty time on the server. That's the whole logic behind it, how can you be so dense as to miss it? Turbine's heart and soul are at mid, not in the intel or in the base area, people have fun at mid. When an engi camps mid, it automatically weakens the enemy's team offense capacity, it condenses them into a small space for his own team to rape them, it forces them to turtle down into their own base because that's the only way to not get steamrolled. It's so stupid to take engineer and his sentry as one thing and completely ignore that there are many factors that empower an engi against an uncoordinated team, which is what you get in a pub in 99.99% of situations.


Do I need to draw you a fucking picture for you to get it? Or are you going to actually read the points I've made next time you want to say something stupid? Read the damn post before trying to come off as a smartass. If you want to form an opinion over something, why would you read a few words from the thread? It makes you look like an idiot.

 

[Maddo]

It's just that it takes a collective and coordinated effort to destroy an engi's nest when his entire team backs him up and keeps you from ever going to mid.

That's the point of a team based game.

which is what you get in a pub in 99.99% of situations.

Just play comp if pubs are not your thing.
At the end of the day, engineers building in mid is just a forward defence strategy.

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

Again, here is someone that hasn't even read a damn word from the thread. I said many times that I have no problems with engi as a class, nor with sentries. I can destroy sentries just fine. It's just that it takes a collective and coordinated effort to destroy an engi's nest when his entire team backs him up and keeps you from ever going to mid.
Oh, yes, they are just 'playing the game'. It's as if they're not ruining anyone's fun, it's as if their own fun does not make you have a shitty time on the server. That's the whole logic behind it, how can you be so dense as to miss it? Turbine's heart and soul are at mid, not in the intel or in the base area, people have fun at mid. When an engi camps mid, it automatically weakens the enemy's team offense capacity, it condenses them into a small space for his own team to rape them, it forces them to turtle down into their own base because that's the only way to not get steamrolled. It's so stupid to take engineer and his sentry as one thing and completely ignore that there are many factors that empower an engi against an uncoordinated team, which is what you get in a pub in 99.99% of situations.


Do I need to draw you a fucking picture for you to get it? Or are you going to actually read the points I've made next time you want to say something stupid? Read the damn post before trying to come off as a smartass. If you want to form an opinion over something, why would you read a few words from the thread? It makes you look like an idiot.

Lmao no, wanting to remove a class from an official map makes you look like an idiot