Declined Discrimination Rule Refinement

[Defibyoulater]

Note 1: This suggestion is (currently) hypothetical and is just simple brainstorming. It is subject to feedback which could alter the suggestion over time due to community thought.

Note 2: This was not entirely inspired by fairnesspleases' recent suggestion, it's been in thought before then. Only after did I see certain people +1'ing fp's suggestion did I consider making this suggestion.

The suggestion is refining the entire discrimination rule, which mind you is ...

Racism and other discrimination towards gender, religion, and sexual orientation.

• Any form of the word nigger (nigga, nigg etc.) is not allowed even if you are just quoting a rap song or you are black, to prevent racists and kids using the same excuse.
• Generic insults (faggot, whore, etc.) by themselves do not classify as discrimination.

... into this ...

"Any player who engages in any form of discrimination is subject to being silenced at the admins' discretion"

(kudoes to Baek for wording)

The new rule heightens tolerance to discrimination in-game.

These kinds of 'social' rules do change over time. An example was the lack of clarity regarding the 'mic-spamming music' rule. Many users got muted in the past for any form of playing music over the mic, as did Jake from VSH. But on the day that Jake was muted, the VSH server (who unanimously enjoyed Jakes mic-music) helped conclude the idea that as long as the community likes the music (with good mic quality) the player was not subject to a silence. Jake was unmuted and from that day forward the rule was refined which lead to a large decrease in cases regarding mic-spamming music.

Almost 35% of reports against players are based on racism, most of those being the simple usage of slurs (some we often hear in public). This suggestion leads way to also decrease the number of issues regarding 'discrimination'. For, let's be honest, the internet is NOT a safe space and all players are expected to bring a certain level of callousness when playing R-Rated (multiplayer) games. And if Skial is trying to achieve "safe space," (which many of us hope its not) then words like whore and faggot should be silencable.

And as Baekr has stated before ...

Skial doesn't benefit from having more people silenced or banned.

This next part is the most debatable, as it lays down the line in which a player can be muted for their 'discriminating actions' ...
This suggestion also implies that when a user is silenced by an "admins discretion," is when a admin concludes that the guilty player has crossed a line of 'fowl mouthing' and 'common game chat' to actual harassment of a specific player.

Another debatable question is ...
If this suggestion goes through, will it also apply to the forums?

Otherwise, it is in big hopes that this suggestion makes skial more fun environment and lowers the amount of work for our admin team.

That is all. Big thank you to DaivdBaekr for his important input.

 

[JayDee]

remember what happened last time someone wanted to change the rules?

 

[Luke]

But this is what we already do, not sure how this would change the community.
Some admins see someone using discriminatory language in a non-offensive way, they choose to warn.
Some admins see someone using discriminatory language in a non-offensive way, they choose to silence.

The other issue is that we don't have set guidelines for what discrimination is, if we go by definition:

the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Let's focus on that for a second - "race, age or sex".
Race, racism (49133) - https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=commslist&advSearch=racism&advType=reason
Age, ageism (0) - https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=commslist&advSearch=ageism&advType=reason
Sex, sexism (37) - https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=commslist&advSearch=sexism&advType=reason
Discrimination (2) - https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=commslist&advSearch=discrimination&advType=reason
(others) Religion (16) - https://www.skial.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=commslist&advSearch=relig&advType=reason

Note: numbers could be more accurately described in halfs, as silences count as two punishment records.

Hypothetically - imagine that this is the first day of Skial, we currently have no rules, then answer these questions:

• Would Skial be a better place if we punished:
  • Racist people?
  • Ageist people?
    
  • Sexist people?
  • General xenophobes?

If I was on a server and someone said "No children on the microphone" and I proceeded to silence this person for ageism.
I would be the first person (in the history of Skial sourcebans) to use "ageism" as my reason for punishing someone.
Would the community be a better place if we expanded the definition of discrimination that we use?

As you have said, the "generic insults" line allows many things which I personally don't understand.
Just as a single for instance, "whore" is not a generic insult - it is very much gender based.
Google for the definition and look at the synonyms, "promiscuous woman", "scarlet woman", "lady of pleasure"

Spoiler: Google Synonyms

prostitute, promiscuous woman, slut, sex worker, call girl, white slave;
fille de joie, demi-mondaine, grande horizontale;
puta;
informal pro, moll, brass nail, tom, woman on the game, working girl, member of the oldest profession, tramp, floozie, scrubber, slapper;
informal slag;
informal hooker, hustler, roundheel;
black English ho;
euphemisticmodel, escort, masseuse;
datedtart, streetwalker, woman of the streets, lady/woman of the night, scarlet woman, fallen woman, woman of easy virtue, cocotte, loose woman;
archaiccourtesan, strumpet, harlot, trollop, wanton, woman of ill repute, lady of pleasure, Cyprian, doxy, drab, quean, trull, wench

I've discussed with @Sakiko before about culture discrimination, as we currently have no rule regarding it.
Some cultures have words that they find offensive, whereas other cultures do not find them offensive.
Sometimes these words, by the very definition, are not offensive - but that's not how the culture views them.

If we removed the rules about discrimination and instead replaced it with something much more generic, is this good?
For instance, what if we said all extreme harassment or offensive commands are against the rules?
This would still include racism, sexism, etc... but it would also allow other cases where someone is being harassed.

I've discussed a case with a few admins before, of someone who made a report which lead to a player being banned.
This players friends then started saying very offensive things about me - which is fine, that's part of the job.
But they then started saying very offensive things about the reportee, they would murder their family - hope their parents die of cancer.
...this kind of barrage of offense towards a single player continued for 10+ minutes, with nothing we can do about it.

+1
I'm all for supporting this, as long as it is enforced consistantly and across the board.
I'm fine with every admin having their own views of what is rule-breaking.
...as long as we don't end up attacking each other over those views.

 

[courtsnort♩♪♫♬]

Every admin is going to have different opinions on what is discriminatory, what is a joke, and what is just mindless banter. I don't see how this would be consistent at all. I'm sure a character such as Prophet would either not enforce it at all, or use it just to punish people who insult him personally. Which would cause confusion if say RMSniper or Sakiko muted someone for something that Prophet or another admin would let pass. Not taking a jab at Prophet per se, but you get the point.

Also the players themselves would have different views on whether an insult is discriminatory towards them or another person on the server. There would be a lot of loopholes and a lot of vote abuse from people who will pretend they are being discriminated against just because they don't like a certain user, using it as a free pass to call a vote on them. The issue would then become a "he said she said" issue similar to the reports we get about people being muted for spam but have no evidence that they weren't indeed spamming. They would have to wait out the gag and the perpetrator wouldn't get punished.

I just see this rule becoming a huge mess of it passes

 

[JohnnyGaloshes]

I think someone calling someone a RACIST name like Ginny, Cracker, Nigger, Mick, Fap, Raghead, Wetback, Chink, Spic and Kike should be an instant ban. No forgiveness in less than 1 year banned.

Other words like faggot, homo, dumbass, fucktard, goof, dickhead, Old Fart, Teenie Bopper and no skill fucking homo faggot should be allowed. Unless it is being spammed in chat via text or voice, like ant other spamming.

Other than that, grow some skin and toughen up.

 

[KinCryos]

a RACIST name like … Fap…

"fap" is racist? couldn't find anything supporting that, all I found is that it's an obsolete 16th century slang for drunk

 

[Dolan Trump]

This was a major sticking point back when I was a mod for Firepowered. We used the blanket term "Abusive Language," which covered most forms of racism, bigotry, and other forms of more severe harassment. While directing insults such as "you're all stupid niggers" or something like that was always banned, we used to have another rule called "Abusive Language used as slang" which covered uses of words such as "nigga" outside of an abusive context. Through a long discussion, we decided to drop that particular rule, but also restructure the other rule to make it clear that using slang words to get around the abusive language rule was not allowed. It was a very controversial change, and I recall a few high-profile members leaving as a result of it.

Speaking from experience, I can say that issuing mutes is one of the harder things to do as a server mod, just because of how many subjective variables are involved (this, plus other reasons are why I likely won't seek admin here or anywhere else. I'd rather just be the player). This wouldn't exactly be a rule change, just a re-posturing from a different position. It would help establish that discrimination and abusiveness from any angle is not tolerated here, we want to foster a civil and inclusive gaming environment. If you can't deal with that, find somewhere else to hang out.

I think someone calling someone a RACIST name like Ginny, Cracker, Nigger, Mick, Fap, Raghead, Wetback, Chink, Spic and Kike should be an instant ban. No forgiveness in less than 1 year banned.

Other than that, grow some skin and toughen up.

The only problem with this is the fact that Valve now actively punishes private servers who don't show restraint in bans, since most traffic was directed to their server via quickplay before, and now Valve matchmaking. Back in the day server owners could ban safely, but this is no longer so. This is why mutes/gags are issued instead; they keep players on the server whilst nullifying their toxic language. Most places only elevate it to a ban if they try to circumvent the mute/gag (name changes, sprays, etc.). In most cases, a defanged bigot who's just there to harass will leave once they figure it out, whilst an otherwise normal player with a crass outlook will accept the punishment and keep playing, and perhaps stop once the mute expires to avoid dealing with it again. And some people just make an honest mistake; no point in scaring them off early, right?

Being an admin is a LOT harder than most people realize. That's why admin recruiting is so selective: in addition to potential admin abusers, they try to weed out those they feel are not ready or not compatible with the position. It requires top-tier interaction, social skills, and a bit of basic psychology. It requires being a cop. And it requires some HR and customer service. Most gamers don't possess sufficient skill in any of those to commit several hours a week towards keeping the place civil and free from harassment and hate (and scammers and cheaters). I have the skills and could probably be a great admin if I wanted; I just choose not to in order to just have fun, and focus on far more important things.

 

[Meowcenary]

We silence for racism so strictly because its one of those "heavy" things people are adamantly against. And we'll only do something about people being sexist/narking on religion/etc if its actually serious. For example, if someone tells some chick to go make them a sandwich they're not going to be instantly silenced. But if they go on a long hate speech against women we'd do something about it.

We don't silence for all forms of discrimination or petty things like 'faggot' and 'whore' because they're so petty and players have such a easy solution to deal with these people (Client mute).

Instead of trying to protect people from petty internet hate, they're better off learning how to deal with it instead.

Just like how psychologists will tell you safe spaces and trying to actively avoid "triggering" anyone will only make things worse for them by depriving them of opportunities to learn how to actually deal with being "triggered" when it happens, trying to actively silence anyone who causes any offense to someone else only deprives these people of opportunities to learn how to actually deal with stupid petty internet hate comments.

Instead of silencing for all forms of discrimination and petty things like 'faggot', a better solution is letting these people learn how to deal with it. Which in TF2 its so ridiculously easy with a client mute feature that completely blocks their chat and mic.

I used to get offended by being called a furfag many years ago and I've long since stopped getting butthurt over it because I realized how to deal with it. Just like how I don't get offended over being called a faggot or get upset over being made fun of for liking dicks.

I feel the rules are fine as is. We shouldn't be silencing for stupid stuff like someone calling someone a 'faggot' or for petty harassment. Some people, with all due respect to them, just really need to learn to grow a spine

To top it off if we go silencing everyone who calls someone a faggot or does any form of discrimination we wouldn't have a player base left that isn't silenced

 

[Guerilla Gorilla]

"fap" is racist? couldn't find anything supporting that, all I found is that it's an obsolete 16th century slang for drunk

I agree, there is no way in hell "fap" is racist or an insult since (now) it is just a 'slang' for masturbating. Like if I said "You fap everyday" did I just insult someone??

To add on I generally agree with this suggestion though it is true that everyone has different opinions on what is and isn't racist but it's usually common sense.

EDIT: What I said on the thread made by Fairnessplease

For example if there are 2 homosexuals you would probably never see them greeting each other saying "What's up faggot" however you do see African-Americans greeting each other saying "What's up nigga". So if anything only that specific part of the rule should be altered IF the community agrees.

Also some people said that admins would have a hard time distinguishing where there is genuine racism and a harmless phrase however I don't think it would be a problem since it really relies on common sense. If someone said "Fuck you nigga" that is obviously racist but if it's just someone saying "Waddup niggas" then probably no harm was meant.

 

[Dolan Trump]

Instead of silencing for all forms of discrimination and petty things like 'faggot', a better solution is letting these people learn how to deal with it. Which in TF2 its so ridiculously easy with a client mute feature that completely blocks their chat and mic.

I get a lot of mileage out of that button :p

 

[BBQ Prophet]

This all ultimately comes down to what the owner thinks is right for the community. It stands to reason that something would have been changed by now if it needed to be changed. Everything is up to an individual's interpretation and we don't need to abide to a dictionary (of which there are many) to know what to think or do. The Rules should be easy to understand before breaking them rather than just a post-punishment reference. The server and forum regulars know the rules, so they need to remain mostly as they are written for the newcomers. A generic rule about "any form of discrimination" would very, painfully-obviously leave a lot of players in the dark, especially about debateably-racist slang like "nigga," etc.
I think the Rules could use a few modifications. But making one of the most commonly-referenced and applied sections of said Rules more vague is not beneficial, practical nor even actually a "refinement".
@Meowcenary said it perfectly
-1

 

[Toxik]

"Any player who engages in any form of discrimination is subject to being silenced at the admins' discretion"

I love this community and respect its admins, but I think that's putting too much trust into several few.
If something like this is implemented, we know that it is going to be either:

1. Abused by some admin
2. Going to create shitstorms of appeals
3. Going to have to be re-worded in a few months

We do have very good admins compared to many other communities that have tyrannical admins/owners who indiscriminately ban people for petty reasons, and I feel like giving our admins this power of banning isn't going to end well.

I personally don't see a problem with the current rule, it's been working fine so far as far I know.
I think Meowcenary has the right idea, that people should just deal with the fact that playing online involves certain "risks" that people will be toxic and talk a LOT of shit. We have already provided people with the options of muting and reporting those players, I don't think we should micro-manage to try to catch every person who says a bad word and hand them bans.

As for the forum, since it's not anywhere as large as the gaming community, I also think we've done a pretty decent job of moderating what people say and keeping all the shit in unmod. If someone says or does something unacceptable outside of that section, they know they're going to be awarded either warning points or temp/perm bans.

 

[Defibyoulater]

The more I try to think about how to augment this idea, I keep running into more obstacles and it becomes a vicious cycle one side being fixed and other loosens. I was gonna make a post addressing peoples' uncertainties, but I'm going to put it in a spoiler below (if anyone wants to read or debate), because I now personally think my points don't hold up well. The good sides of the new rule are easily accompanied by bad sides, and perhaps our current policy is best as it is the most safest approach.

Spoiler: addressed uncertainties.

@Meowcenary @BBQ Prophet
I think I stated this sentence (in the OP) below wrong.

And if Skial is trying to achieve "safe space," (which many of us hope its not) then words like whore and faggot should be silencable.

It should have been ...
"And if Skial is trying to achieve "safe space," (which many of us hope its not) then words like whore and faggot WOULD be silencable." The suggestion did not mean to push words like faggot and whore to be silenceable like other slurs are. No body wants those words to be silenceable because it would be ridiculous and chaotic, as you guys so stated, and I fully agree. (In fact, I use faggot and whoreface as a insult quite often.)

The suggestion meant to take pressure off of other slurs (especially ones we silence for often, perhaps those that JohnnyGaloshes stated), so that they are less of an issue on the servers. We can agree that this new rule is a little vague, but it's just a 'prototype.' Perhaps someone could think of a more definite, yet freeing, rule.

For example, if someone tells some chick to go make them a sandwich they're not going to be instantly silenced. But if they go on a long hate speech against women we'd do something about it.

This is actually where a 'admins discretion' comes into play for the new rule. When one user begins to specifically target and blatantly attack with hate speech onto another player.

Instead of silencing for all forms of discrimination and petty things like 'faggot', a better solution is letting these people learn how to deal with it.

The main thought of the suggestion was to have racial slurs to join words like 'faggot' and 'whore' in the generic insults category, because they get thrown around so often.

I don't wanna sound like a debating crazy social justice warrior, I'm just curious if people would like to see more tolerance on such slurs so that we don't have to deal with them like we do for generic insults.

 

[Fairnessplease]

I would love to know on why I tried making something like this, people called me autistic, a troll, and I got spewed with dumb ratings and troll ratings. Not only that, I was told to kill to "go die" in unmod. Whatever, those people are not at peace. Anyways I totally agree with what your saying. You made a very better and more informative version of it and I appreciate that. For an R rated game not allowing the word "nigga" but every single other server including Valve servers allow it.

I'm not saying that the rules right now are perfect, Skial servers are pretty much the only servers I see with this amount of rules, while other servers keep it simple such as: no hacking, no spamming, no griefing.

I think this is the first step in changing the rules for the better good, and considering that 40% of the reports are based on racism, and almost all of them are based around that racist words leads me to believe we need to change that as you said; to:

Any player who engages in any form of discrimination is subject to being silenced at the admins' discretion.

So good suggestion; +1.

Peace, love and don't change who you are based on other people and keep going.

 

[Defibyoulater]

I think this is the first step in changing the rules for the better good, and considering that 40% of the reports are based on racism, and almost all of them are based around that racist words leads me to believe we need to change that as you said; to.

The issue that we run into is that when it comes to handling racism, it's much more difficult to determine whether it's R-Rated chat or actual hate speech. Leaving admins to decide whether it is or not does not sit well with many (especially after the actions of certain admins in the past). We would need to be god to determine if what people are saying is non-intended to be offensive or actual hate speech.

I was in the hopes that the suggestion would lead way to a proper (universally easy to follow) procedure as to separate them, but it's always a risk.

 

[Fairnessplease]

The issue that we run into is that when it comes to handling racism, it's much more difficult to determine whether it's R-Rated chat or actual hate speech. Leaving admins to decide whether it is or not does not sit well with many (especially after the actions of certain admins in the past). We would need to be god to determine if what people are saying is non-intended to be offensive or actual hate speech.

I totally agree.

 

[Defibyoulater]

I totally agree.

Well, I thank you for your support. But, unfortunately, agreeing with the statement above makes +1'ing this suggestion almost incompatible.

 

[Fairnessplease]

Well, I thank you for your support. But, unfortunately, agreeing with the statement above makes +1'ing this suggestion almost incompatible.

Sorry, I'm not dumb. I thought it was something related to my post. Anyways, I stand by my comment in regards to it. I agree leaving admins to decide to whether it's racist or not, but wouldn't this come to any other situation also? Like words like beaner? It's not only the word "nigga" that's why I suggested what I did.

"Everything gets a return." - Morgan

 

[JohnnyGaloshes]

This thread in a nutshell

TL;DR

 

[Maddo]

Just add a line saying "Admin have discretion in all cases".