pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
2 pipes of a demoman do more damage that a backstab or a market garden, 500 is too low, at least 750 as a minimum will be greatly better, there was a lot of players playing trolldier and spy not because it was effective but because it was fun, now it's frustrating, i'm not asking a revert, just a slight buff

ps: ignore the downvotes, I have some haters
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Yet hasn't responded to the ones with explanations.

What exactly are people agreeing with me on? I'm genuinely curious about this one, if anything its usually the other way around with people disagreeing with an admin, over something like a ban or something new implemented.

Chief, you come into here, give a 2 sentence explanation on why spy and trolldier needs to be buffed, you have 2 admins saying this is wrong, you have 2 different FF2 balancers saying you are wrong, and you have a VSH regular saying you are wrong. At what point do you swallow your pride and realize you aren't always correct? So far the only responses you have given are along the lines of "you aren't smart, I am", or what it feels to be, you're trying to impersonate the person in your profile picture, which is what I personally think is the more accurate statement with all of your comments on psycology over and over. I think I, as well as a few others, are beginning to have an understanding on the type of person you are.
Another question about ego, I was talking in general that admins tend to have more ego because of people constantly agreeing with them, not you necessarily, otherwise I would have just told you that you are egocentric, and did I ? no, I don't know if you have a big ego or not but you're definitely a clown sometimes.

Now you're just criticizing, I'm not always right, no one is and no one will ever be, but I'm right about this and I know it, spy minimum damage of a backstab needs to be slightly buffed, at least 600.

Now you're just talking about L ? what ? personal attacks doesn't affect me, but it seems like I've hurted you, I'm sorry about I didn't meant to, but I believe that you need to grow up mentally, I don't think that it will help, so I'll just hope that you gain wisdom, I need more wisdom too btw don't worry.

It's obvious when you play the server when there's a low amount of people often that spy need a buff, I'm not 100% sure about mg because mantreads and gomba balance the low damage, it doesn't matter the amount of people that says I'm wrong, it's not because the crowd says that one guy is wrong that he is, I won't stop arguing because of the crowd.

I'll stop arguing when you guys either:
Understand that I'm right, and it's hard to accept it, I know.
Put an actual explaination that proves me that I'm wrong.
Or I'll just stop talking entirely, I mean, my time is more valuable than the equivalent of talking to a wall.

edit:grammar
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
I'm going to write in one last time here because I can't edit the title's description:

THIS POST IS ABOUT A SUGGESTION TO MAKE SPY BACKSTABS AND MARKET GARDEN MINIMUM DAMAGE SLIGHTLY BUFFED ON EMPTY SERVERS (10 players or less) (500 to 600/750)

I think that backstabs and market garden on full servers are balanced, 1500 is balanced, but definitely not 500 on empty servers, at least 600 or 750 should be better.

Btw, I understand that I should have specified this is the title's description but I thought I could edit it, and when I posted this forgot to add it, I genuinely thought that it was in the title's description all along. my fault.
 
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Helius21

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
Another question about ego, I was talking in general that admins tend to have more ego because of people constantly agreeing with them, not you necessarily, otherwise I would have just told you that you are egocentric, and did I ? no, I don't know if you have a big ego or not but you're definitely a clown sometimes.
I genuinely don't understand what your fascination is with people and their ego when they are not at all using it as a means to discuss this suggestion with you. I reckon they are humbling you by choosing to participate, rather than ignore your posts and leave you hanging without feedback. This applies to users of any level, has nothing to do with admin positions or just people like you and me and this is not at all a statement made to appeal to the admin in question for social clout.
I'll stop arguing when you guys either:
Understand that I'm right, and it's hard to accept it, I know...
It doesn't look like you want feedback though, and rather just blind approval from your peers as you whole heartedly agree that your idea is the right one...
...Put an actual explaination that proves me that I'm wrong.
Or if you do, you seem to be losing their meaning in translation? I think it is fair to say many people have already provided you with well thought out answers regarding balance and their experiences, which are not invalidated due to your perception as to how long they have played the game mode.
feral is actually providing decent explanations.
Not only is Nich giving you rather thought out and explained responses (as far as I can guess anyhow, I suppose), but the irony of you worrying about admin's and their egos yet not being aware enough to know who you are trying to use as a shield for your even more ironic choice of words is laughable.

As for the game itself, I would like to suggest that, just like the normal base game, it might be possible that in some way, shape, or form, that not every class is necessarily vital at any given moment. For instance, if you are playing against a team of pyros, is it really all that viable to become the fifth spy on the team? Probably not. I mean sure, you can own them if you are skilled/lucky enough, but overall it will generally be more difficult to do so. When it comes to Hale, sure the game changes a bit but the idea kinda feels the same to me, although I will say I have not personally played a lot of VSH or FF2 these last few years. Not every class is going to have the same effectiveness against the Hale, however it seems that this was in mind when balancing the classes anyhow.

Spy has some powerful abilities for instance; can get a generous chunk of health done in a singular melee hit, can turn invisible, and has a decent revolver. You can tastefully tweak these things with various tools in his arsenal that reward you for taking different actions. It's true that playing Spy specifically makes you a bit more of a risky player, but it's no less the risk you get for playing Spy in the normal game I feel. Skill gets you in and out alive, without it you are dead. It might be a higher skill ceiling, sure, but that is a silent contract you sign when you pick that class above others. I feel Soldier has also been perfectly explained enough, especially in the context of you already using the very powerful Trolldier set that you do. Making the risk to get close is an unnecessary choice that you choose to make, and yet get handsomely rewarded for nonetheless. If you can't get away, that is because you failed to calculate said risk and its consequences.

I personally would love to see you talk less about how people are clowns and instead think about what you disagree on others statements. It's okay for you to have different opinions, that's not the issue here. It's different if you can't really explain yourself, insult others for literally no reason, and choose to adopt this "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude in the Suggestions forum.
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
I genuinely don't understand what your fascination is with people and their ego when they are not at all using it as a means to discuss this suggestion with you. I reckon they are humbling you by choosing to participate, rather than ignore your posts and leave you hanging without feedback. This applies to users of any level, has nothing to do with admin positions or just people like you and me and this is not at all a statement made to appeal to the admin in question for social clout.

It doesn't look like you want feedback though, and rather just blind approval from your peers as you whole heartedly agree that your idea is the right one...

Or if you do, you seem to be losing their meaning in translation? I think it is fair to say many people have already provided you with well thought out answers regarding balance and their experiences, which are not invalidated due to your perception as to how long they have played the game mode.

Not only is Nich giving you rather thought out and explained responses (as far as I can guess anyhow, I suppose), but the irony of you worrying about admin's and their egos yet not being aware enough to know who you are trying to use as a shield for your even more ironic choice of words is laughable.

As for the game itself, I would like to suggest that, just like the normal base game, it might be possible that in some way, shape, or form, that not every class is necessarily vital at any given moment. For instance, if you are playing against a team of pyros, is it really all that viable to become the fifth spy on the team? Probably not. I mean sure, you can own them if you are skilled/lucky enough, but overall it will generally be more difficult to do so. When it comes to Hale, sure the game changes a bit but the idea kinda feels the same to me, although I will say I have not personally played a lot of VSH or FF2 these last few years. Not every class is going to have the same effectiveness against the Hale, however it seems that this was in mind when balancing the classes anyhow.

Spy has some powerful abilities for instance; can get a generous chunk of health done in a singular melee hit, can turn invisible, and has a decent revolver. You can tastefully tweak these things with various tools in his arsenal that reward you for taking different actions. It's true that playing Spy specifically makes you a bit more of a risky player, but it's no less the risk you get for playing Spy in the normal game I feel. Skill gets you in and out alive, without it you are dead. It might be a higher skill ceiling, sure, but that is a silent contract you sign when you pick that class above others. I feel Soldier has also been perfectly explained enough, especially in the context of you already using the very powerful Trolldier set that you do. Making the risk to get close is an unnecessary choice that you choose to make, and yet get handsomely rewarded for nonetheless. If you can't get away, that is because you failed to calculate said risk and its consequences.

I personally would love to see you talk less about how people are clowns and instead think about what you disagree on others statements. It's okay for you to have different opinions, that's not the issue here. It's different if you can't really explain yourself, insult others for literally no reason, and choose to adopt this "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude in the Suggestions forum.
most answers I got were because I talked about ego, why dont you quote my explainations, you're cherry picking my "ego argument" rather than actual arguments of balancing spy and trolldier.

I want feedback and you know it as I clearly said that I'll stop arguing if someone proves me wrong, and no one did.

Using someone as shield ? what are you talking about ? and why are you talking about nich rather than giving actual feedback about the suggestion, I've noticed that you're quoting everything but them.

You don't play vsh nor ff2, why are you even here ? you can't compare casual and vsh. you need to compare the balance of risk/reward. spy don't get instantly killed on casual unless it's a random crit.

You're informations/argumentaions apply more to casual that vsh.

You're loosing yourself, try to focus on the main subject, why do you write in a suggestion about VSH if you don't play it ?

You're reasoning is beyond me.
 

Helius21

Notably Dangerous Demo-Knight
Contributor
most answers I got were because I talked about ego, why dont you quote my explainations, you're cherry picking my "ego argument" rather than actual arguments of balancing spy and trolldier.
Your explanations regarding this 'ego' unfortunately consist of you pulling things out of thin air due to things beyond my understanding. If you would like to focus more on the classes, please do so. I'm not interested in hearing about what you think of the admins in this particular thread.
I want feedback and you know it as I clearly said that I'll stop arguing if someone proves me wrong, and no one did.
I don't know why you think anyone is wrong here, instead of respecting that they have different opinions. There are some who think we need a 10th class to the game. Are they wrong? I dunno, I disagree but I also do not live in the timeline where we got the dog class or the civilian, etc.
Using someone as shield ? what are you talking about ? and why are you talking about nich rather than giving actual feedback about the suggestion, I've noticed that you're quoting everything but them.
Sorry, it's simply unclear to me why you felt like insulting Nich but taking feral's response to heart so quickly and I admit that was an unnecessary comment. I could pick out every bit of Nich's posts that I agree with and feel contribute to the discussion, but then I'd be echoing them due to having similar opinions of which I gave reactions to instead. You also already explained that you had reread these posts, there's nothing I feel I can contribute to with his messages.
You don't play vsh nor ff2, why are you even here ? you can't compare casual and vsh. you need to compare the balance of risk/reward. spy don't get instantly killed on casual unless it's a random crit.
I have been playing on Skial servers since 2015, with roughly a quarter of my time being in VSH. I didn't mean that I wasn't playing VSH at all, just that I haven't played much these last few years.
You're informations/argumentaions apply more to casual that vsh.
I can agree as I don't know a ton about VSH stuff, though I'm glad you can acknowledge this still applies to VSH in some way
You're loosing yourself, try to focus on the main subject, why do you write in a suggestion about VSH if you don't play it ?

You're reasoning is beyond me.
I don't know where I said I don't play it, I also do acknowledge I'm not as experienced and that these are merely my opinions. You can disagree with me and others as you wish, but we can do the same to you regardless of our takes, for better or worse.

My experience with Spy in either game mode is simply this; just like normal play, there are high skill ceilings. 500 for a single stab, as well as having that scale with server population, is generous. You have knives that can change the very nature of your reward the same beyond that damage, which can help you still secure safe escapes. You have watches that can save your life, give you more time to reposition unnoticed, or simply to sneakily close the distance between you and the Hale. Your revolvers can be utilized for similar purposes and in strong ways, whether that is extra cloak or merely just DPS on demand. All that you need to ultimately tie these things together is both skill and understanding that you are fragile and need to execute things flawlessly as Spy would. If this should strictly be only a casual risk, then I don't really see why we need something potentially strong like the Spy existing in VSH
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Your explanations regarding this 'ego' unfortunately consist of you pulling things out of thin air due to things beyond my understanding. If you would like to focus more on the classes, please do so. I'm not interested in hearing about what you think of the admins in this particular thread.

I don't know why you think anyone is wrong here, instead of respecting that they have different opinions. There are some who think we need a 10th class to the game. Are they wrong? I dunno, I disagree but I also do not live in the timeline where we got the dog class or the civilian, etc.

Sorry, it's simply unclear to me why you felt like insulting Nich but taking feral's response to heart so quickly and I admit that was an unnecessary comment. I could pick out every bit of Nich's posts that I agree with and feel contribute to the discussion, but then I'd be echoing them due to having similar opinions of which I gave reactions to instead. You also already explained that you had reread these posts, there's nothing I feel I can contribute to with his messages.

I have been playing on Skial servers since 2015, with roughly a quarter of my time being in VSH. I didn't mean that I wasn't playing VSH at all, just that I haven't played much these last few years.

I can agree as I don't know a ton about VSH stuff, though I'm glad you can acknowledge this still applies to VSH in some way

I don't know where I said I don't play it, I also do acknowledge I'm not as experienced and that these are merely my opinions. You can disagree with me and others as you wish, but we can do the same to you regardless of our takes, for better or worse.

My experience with Spy in either game mode is simply this; just like normal play, there are high skill ceilings. 500 for a single stab, as well as having that scale with server population, is generous. You have knives that can change the very nature of your reward the same beyond that damage, which can help you still secure safe escapes. You have watches that can save your life, give you more time to reposition unnoticed, or simply to sneakily close the distance between you and the Hale. Your revolvers can be utilized for similar purposes and in strong ways, whether that is extra cloak or merely just DPS on demand. All that you need to ultimately tie these things together is both skill and understanding that you are fragile and need to execute things flawlessly as Spy would. If this should strictly be only a casual risk, then I don't really see why we need something potentially strong like the Spy existing in VSH
About feral read the posts again, I don't agree with neither feral or nich but feral wasn't disrespectful, nich was being sarcastic multiple times and said to feral that I considered him as "one of my haters" that's what makes him a clown, if you read the previous posts, which you obviously did, you know it, so stop acting like you suddenly forgot how to read between one post to another.

You're pulling out the "ego argument" because you have no actual arguments for the balancing of spy and trolldier, so you're cherry picking unrelated stuff that has no correlation with the main subject, and why are you defending nich so hard ? I'm sure he can do it himself, he doesn't need you, it's impressive that write in a post about balancing spy and trolldier in vsh when you clearly don't care about the subject.

You acknowledge that your comment was useless, that's a good thing.

I really doubt that you play spy and trolldier as often as me, for vsh I literally was the first of VSH in ranking 2 years ago, I know vsh well enough to propose a balance, like uncle dane said in "Trickle-Down Balancing" when balancing an item, you need to first make it balanced for the best players because it will automatically balance it for the people with a lower skill level, he was talking about balancing items in casual but the balancing idea remain the same, I can safely assume that I have enough experience and knowledge about the game to know where something needs a fix.

Yes, VSH and casual have really small similarities, but in essence the subject is the reward/risk factor.

I think that you should play spy more often in vsh on empty servers, stock revolver is easily the worst damage dealer is VSH, every decent vsh players knows it and no one use it, I think that you don't have enough experience especially in the current version of vsh with spy and trolldier, you're cherry picking arguments that have no correlation with the balance, I can safely assume that we can't discuss, don't expect me to be a perfect human, I'm not and neither you are, with qualities comes flaws.
 
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Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
FF2 and VSH are similar but not as predictable, in VSH every hale does the same amount of damage and since there are less bosses, it's easier to know what are their strength/weakness and also their rage, in FF2 there are way more bosses with different rage and damage, which can be hard to learn, however the concept is the same, I do agree with that.
The situation you are describing is nearly the exact same. Remember what I said before about spy and trolldiers damage in ff2 and how its percent based? That means the more players on the server the more damage and vice versa. When there are sub 10 people on the server, a market will do around 550 damage, and a stab will do about 400 damage. I have played in these exact situations many times, and it doesn't take much effort to still take a large amount of the hales health.

I used to play VSH really really often, in fact I was rank 1 in 2019
Rank doesn't equal skill, it literally just means you were the most active lol, I've had rank 1 on ff2 a multitude of times.
I'm strictly debating about the minimum damage a backstab can do, I should have mentioned it in the title but I genuinely forgot, anything from 600 to 1500 is balanced
Right, and a multitude of people have responded saying this is a stupid idea.
Why risking yourself trying to trickstab or just backstab hale when he can instantly kill you at that range when you can aim for 2 point blank headshots with the ambassador then pull out your invis watch and go flying off the map, this surely involves more skills that a trickstab (sarcasm).
That's exactly the point, a class doesn't need every single weapon to be viable 100% of the time. You do realize revolver spy does more damage than a typical backstab spy right? For context, I bring up @soos, who uses the enforcer on ff2, and can get anywhere from 3K to 5K damage easily (No knife used). The knife doesn't need to do a solid amount of damage 24/7, and what it does with those under 15 players, is a solid chunk of the bosses health (500 is pretty good for something so simple). If the risk isn't worth it, don't do it.
About trolldier, if hes using the mantreads and sync a mg with a stomp he can do minimum 1524 damage, which is great but hale's melee hit extends to his head like the disciplinary action, which can lead to bad deaths and on servers with few people, hale won't be distracted unless he's clueless.
Yuck, crutchtreads, literally free gardens. Forgot VSH has goomba, we had that removed 2 years ago iirc. It's not hard to find a hale distracted, even good hales can't pay attention 100% of the time. Wait for an opertunity such as him targeting/tunneling someone, or the better strategy, wait for the hale to rage, if you are outside of his range area you can go for an easy garden because most of the time hale will be too focused on the people stunned on the ground to look up at you.
Spy has nothing, just a backstab then go for trickstabs and only the kunai can make spy tank a hit, kunai isn't a crutch, it's the weapon of choice of spies risking themselves for trickstabs rather that using the big earner, stab once then flew away, the dead ringer is worst that the invis watch in almost every way, with the invis you can get hit once by hale, fly with the knockback to a healthkit, then you're good, with the dead ringer you don't have no second hit, you need to wait the recharge time because at melee range you're dead, especially if hale's ping is high but it's not like playing with 500 ping is even unrecommended, and it's not like ping always favors the attacker, but that's another story.
Alright, lets talk about spys weapons. Why is the kunai a weapon of choice? If it's such a big risk it must be something not many people would use right? Well the answer is simple, the kunai has little to no risk, let me repeat that again, the kunai, has little, to no risk. Now you may ask why I say this, it takes some skill to trickstab or chainstab. Here's the issue. The first backstab with the kunai requires neither of those. The hale has no idea a spy is behind them, and the spy can get an easy stab. So now on top of damage, he has 200~ health, which is enough to survive a hit. Let's compare this to stock. It's the same situation, except you don't get the health, if anything the kunai is a straight upgrade.
The dead ringer, ah the dead ringer. The most popular item for spies in VSH and FF2. The get out of jail free card. Run up to the hale for the backstab, if he turns around, well simply pullout this nifty gadget, don't die, go invisible, and get a speed boost, and this will all recharge in 20 seconds or so. Now let's apply this to the invis watch. The hale turns around, you use the watch, you aren't fully invisible until the cloak timer is over (0.5 to 1 second depending if l'tranger is used), and if you manage to make it through that, it's a pray to god he doesn't bump into me/accidently hit me while running to your posistion. Invis watch spy also has to deal with laggy hales, generally it's worse for them simply because if you are hit it is over, the dead ringer gives you that free hit, speed, and invis, for the small cost of a recharge timer. Pretty much makes the class have no risk.
Spy and trolldier, besides demoknight are the only classes that can do reliable damage with their melee, against a fast boi that can one hit you, they're anything but low risks classes, every other classes can stay at range, alright spy can use the revolver and soldier can use the direct hit but direct hit has a smaller blast radius for rocket jump which makes it slightly less valable with the mg and spy revolver is so damn boring, like yeah, the invis watch/letranger spy that just shoots hale 3 times to have the cloak full again, staying 80% of the game invis is not a crutch but trickstabing with the kunai is ?
I am unsure if VSH included the update of pyroknight and boxing heavy, but I believe they did, both of those classes do much less than 500 damage per melee hit. If anything, that risk to damage ratio you are talking about is the worst for pyro. His damage is subpar, and using air blast gives the hale rage, as well if you miss a single airblast you are dead. Now, if we look at demoknight, his melee does 195 per swing. That means to be equal to the MINIMUM damage for ONE market garden or ONE backstab is 3 hits with his weapon. That means if demoknight wants to keep up to spy or soldiers melee damage, he needs a 3 to 1 ratio for hits.
The blast radius doesn't matter for rocket jumping. You need almost no radius to rocket jump, it's the same if you use stock, I don't see why you are treating it like a different item. The main reason people with the direct generally do less damage with the market is simply because the damage output of the direct is VERY good. 338 damage for one hit is ridiculous, and you can get that damage guaranteed using taunting for minicrits.
As explained above, kunai doesn't require skill for the first stab, chainstabbing with garenteed 1 hit survival for each stab is easy. If you would also look back at what I said before, I did call the l'tranger a crutch. In this specific situation it wouldn't be a crutch, simply because if you play that way you do little do no damage. Three shots of the l'tranger does 200~ damage, that's almost nothing, then cloaking and repeating takes a long time, eventually damage will add up before the hale catches you or caps, your damage should only be around 1500-2000~. Not much damage.
It might be hard to read it it but you can't do anything but cherry picking on my explainations, see if there's a slight mistake, that's sad, you shouldn't be doing this, hopefully, all of you will gain wisdom, intelligence and heart.
Alright well I explained literally everything you put up above, so there's no excuse of cherry picking from you anywhere. It's odd how you think I'm only pointing out mistakes you make, but you have made a good few dozen and I have said nothing, I take the meat of your argument and go through that. For example, your last sentence, "gain wisdom, intelligence and heart." makes no sense, as well you forgot a coma between intelligence and heart. It's sad you think I am, it feels like you either don't understand what I'm saying due to a language barrier, or rather you aren't reading these in the first place, either is plausible.
Whatever if you think that 750 is too high for a minimum then 600 should be perfect, I'm just shocked that 2 pipes do more damage that a backstab, 600 isn't even a big difference.
750 is definitely high, even 600 is slightly high, I think the current state of 500 is more than fine. However, what isn't fine is the damage calculation you are using. How are two pipes 600 damage? A pipe does 100, unless it is crit, in which case it does 300, does demo get permanent crits in VSH? And if thaat is the answer, than the issue isn't spy is underpowered, it's simply demo is overpowered.
I did my job of staying impartial, fair and true
Well, you definitely weren't impartial. Due to a possible language barrier, impartial is treating everyone the same no matter what there is about them. Now, as you can clearly see, you've disregarded most of my opinion simply because I'm an admin, you've accepted ferals opinion because she plays VSH regularly, and you've called everyone else who disagrees with you a clown. Don't exactly see the impartiality nor being fair or true. Simply put, you act like everybody with the exception of yourself is a clown, incompetent, stupid, or inferior. You treat people with little to no respect with nothing more than them saying they disagree with you, and for whatever reason, you seem to have become quite hostile in most of your responses toward me. I genuinely don't understand why you act like everyone else is wrong, again as I've said before, every single person who has commented on this with the exception of you has been against the implementation of your suggestion. Is everyone a clown, or is it simply you are the clown.
 
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Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
Just saw the new message from noon, was distracted by herp so didn't refresh lol
Another question about ego, I was talking in general that admins tend to have more ego because of people constantly agreeing with them, not you necessarily, otherwise I would have just told you that you are egocentric, and did I ? no, I don't know if you have a big ego or not but you're definitely a clown sometimes.
Correct, you don't know if I have a big ego or not, but you did say I have one. Maybe you didn't mean it, but you definitely implied it with the way you structured your sentence and wording. Everyone's a clown sometimes, it would be boring if everyone was serious all the time.
Now you're just criticizing, I'm not always right, no one is and no one will ever be, but I'm right about this and I know it, spy minimum damage of a backstab needs to be slightly buffed, at least 600.
Yep, no one is ever correct 100% of their lives. But this has nothing to do with that. Let me put it in simpler terms. You believe that EVERY PERSON with the EXCEPTION of YOU is wrong on this topic. For whatever reason you think you have knowledge so that's so vast and comprehensive only you can really understand how it works, which is why 2 admins, an ex admin, 2 ff2 balancers, and multiple other people have said you are wrong. I guess we simply can't understand how VSH works the way you do.
Now you're just talking about L ? what ? personal attacks doesn't affect me, but it seems like I've hurted you, I'm sorry about I didn't meant to, but I believe that you need to grow up mentally, I don't think that it will help, so I'll just hope that you gain wisdom, I need more wisdom too btw don't worry.
This isn't a personal attack. It does genuinely feel you are trying to shape yourself to act or be like him, which isn't uncommon for people who use a specific person as their profile picture. Some simply like the character or find it cool, others like the character as much to act like them (more of a role model in circumstances like these, as people generally try to impersonate people they look up to). Not sure why you think you hurt me? But to let it out simply, you haven't the most I've gotten from you is confusion.
It's obvious when you play the server when there's a low amount of people often that spy need a buff, I'm not 100% sure about mg because mantreads and gomba balance the low damage, it doesn't matter the amount of people that says I'm wrong, it's not because the crowd says that one guy is wrong that he is, I won't stop arguing because of the crowd.
I can't exactly tell what you are trying to say in this first sentence? Could be grammatical error or I'm reading it wrong. If you're saying "It's obvious I play the server when there's NOT a low amount of people" then that is incorrect, I've played the servers regularely at all size capacity, mainly between 5-15, and as of recently due to covid, 20-30. If the sentence is meant to say I play on the servers at low capacity I see that spy needs a buff, that is also incorrect. If I thought spy needed a buff I would be agreeing with you. The market garden is fine, I do know the damage they output with and without goomba, mantreads are still a crutch and the market garden does decent damage. It does matter the amount of people that say you are wrong in this scenario, as the people who are disagreeing with you are from both sides of this issue. One side being hale mains, another being spy mains/mercenary players, and the last side being actual balancers of FF2, which again, is very similar to VSH. So it's not the amount of people saying you are wrong, it's the type of people saying you are wrong.
I'll stop arguing when you guys either:
Understand that I'm right, and it's hard to accept it, I know.
Put an actual explaination that proves me that I'm wrong.
Or I'll just stop talking entirely, I mean, my time is more valuable than the equivalent of talking to a wall.
So, unless we agree that you're right you won't stop? I've put an explanation, as well as another one a few minutes ago, so go ahead reading those, but it's funny how you say your "time is more valuable than the equivalent of talking to a wall", except you are literally acting as a wall. You are not budging, moving, or changing your decision, no matter what is said to you. You shouldn't call someone something that's also applicable to yourself.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Just saw the new message from noon, was distracted by herp so didn't refresh lol

Correct, you don't know if I have a big ego or not, but you did say I have one. Maybe you didn't mean it, but you definitely implied it with the way you structured your sentence and wording. Everyone's a clown sometimes, it would be boring if everyone was serious all the time.

Yep, no one is ever correct 100% of their lives. But this has nothing to do with that. Let me put it in simpler terms. You believe that EVERY PERSON with the EXCEPTION of YOU is wrong on this topic. For whatever reason you think you have knowledge so that's so vast and comprehensive only you can really understand how it works, which is why 2 admins, an ex admin, 2 ff2 balancers, and multiple other people have said you are wrong. I guess we simply can't understand how VSH works the way you do.

This isn't a personal attack. It does genuinely feel you are trying to shape yourself to act or be like him, which isn't uncommon for people who use a specific person as their profile picture. Some simply like the character or find it cool, others like the character as much to act like them (more of a role model in circumstances like these, as people generally try to impersonate people they look up to). Not sure why you think you hurt me? But to let it out simply, you haven't the most I've gotten from you is confusion.

I can't exactly tell what you are trying to say in this first sentence? Could be grammatical error or I'm reading it wrong. If you're saying "It's obvious I play the server when there's NOT a low amount of people" then that is incorrect, I've played the servers regularely at all size capacity, mainly between 5-15, and as of recently due to covid, 20-30. If the sentence is meant to say I play on the servers at low capacity I see that spy needs a buff, that is also incorrect. If I thought spy needed a buff I would be agreeing with you. The market garden is fine, I do know the damage they output with and without goomba, mantreads are still a crutch and the market garden does decent damage. It does matter the amount of people that say you are wrong in this scenario, as the people who are disagreeing with you are from both sides of this issue. One side being hale mains, another being spy mains/mercenary players, and the last side being actual balancers of FF2, which again, is very similar to VSH. So it's not the amount of people saying you are wrong, it's the type of people saying you are wrong.

So, unless we agree that you're right you won't stop? I've put an explanation, as well as another one a few minutes ago, so go ahead reading those, but it's funny how you say your "time is more valuable than the equivalent of talking to a wall", except you are literally acting as a wall. You are not budging, moving, or changing your decision, no matter what is said to you. You shouldn't call someone something that's also applicable to yourself.
Tbh i'm seriously starting to think that it's more of a miscommunicating issue, you seem to actually put logic and decent arguments and I have a lot of problem with speaking english, but you are definitly wrong about some things since I know a lot of strat that are way better for survavibily/damage that backstabs or market garden but I do agree with you for some things.

I'm getting lazy again, I'll probably add my explanations later on anyway, maybe I'll write everything in french then use a translating website, this might help.

I love death note, please, avoid this topic.

Also I dont structure my sentences or anything like that, I try to be transparent about what im saying, no under meaning or whatever its called in english.
 
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Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
Tbh i'm seriously starting to think that it's more of a miscommunicating issue, you seem to actually put logic and decent arguments and I have a lot of problem with speaking english
I think its miscommunication for quite a few reasons, which I'll explain below on what you said after.
I love death note, please, avoid this topic.
I haven't said anything about death note, I only referenced the fact I felt you were trying to impersonate certain qualities of a person from that show, I only brought it up there to respond to you.
Also I dont structure my sentences or anything like that, I try to be transparent about what im saying, no under meaning or whatever its called in english
Heres the miscommunication part, to structure a sentence is to create a sentence with multiple elements. To say someone structured a sentence in a specific way is one thing, but saying you don't structure a sentence is equivalent to just saying words and hoping they pair together.
 

Zeo

TF2 Admin
Contributor
It looks like someone has a big ego. Mr “I’m always right and everyone else is wrong”. Get off your high horse.

The hales hp is scaled based on the number of player and 500 minimum is fine. You act like everyone has perfect aim and can easily hit two nades at any time which is not the case. Spy overall still out damages most classes.

Trolldiers are just annoying. Annoying and high damage is a terrible combination.
 
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