pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
2 pipes of a demoman do more damage that a backstab or a market garden, 500 is too low, at least 750 as a minimum will be greatly better, there was a lot of players playing trolldier and spy not because it was effective but because it was fun, now it's frustrating, i'm not asking a revert, just a slight buff

ps: ignore the downvotes, I have some haters
 
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herp 105.4

Server-Clearing Cynic
Contributor
FF2 Balancer
I'm honestly too lazy to continue with my explanations, and you seem to not want to change your opinion about the buff, I'll probably add them later on but from now I can only recommend you to play VSH as spy and trolldier.
this is not how you win a case, do more research, bring figures
cope seethe mald
 
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Feral Angel

Server-Clearing Cynic
Contributor
Yes, I'm saying that 750 damage minimum is balanced, unfortunate news or not, 500 is too low, I'm playing on the vsh eu server for 2 years now, if im writing a post about it, it's because I know what im talking about, I'm kind of a perfectionnist.
I’ve been playing VSH for 6 years. I still believe that the buffs are not needed because as I explained, the damage is fine. Like I said in my previous post, soldier’s MG damage was increased after the manntreads were nerfed. As for spy, I see no point of his buffs, his damage is perfect as it is. In a full server it does 1,300 which is ENOUGH damage for a spy to do.

Can’t go for your other message but you said you don’t care about people disagreeing with your suggestions, then you went after nich’s ego. Ego =/= disagreeing on a suggestion. Like what? I have played on a server with less than 15 people on, it’s kinda difficult but that’s the fun part of it as well. My opinion must only matter to you since I’m not a admin and I have been playing vsh for a long time.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
I’ve been playing VSH for 6 years. I still believe that the buffs are not needed because as I explained, the damage is fine. Like I said in my previous post, soldier’s MG damage was increased after the manntreads were nerfed. As for spy, I see no point of his buffs, his damage is perfect as it is. In a full server it does 1,300 which is ENOUGH damage for a spy to do.

Can’t go for your other message but you said you don’t care about people disagreeing with your suggestions, then you went after nich’s ego. Ego =/= disagreeing on a suggestion. Like what? I have played on a server with less than 15 people on, it’s kinda difficult but that’s the fun part of it as well. My opinion must only matter to you since I’m not a admin and I have been playing vsh for a long time.
No, your opinion matters to me if you're explaining it with smart and logical informations, as I said before, the damage on more than 15 player is enough and dont need a buff, 1500 for spy and mg is balanced, i'm talking about the minimum, 500 is too low, 2 point blank headshots with the amby then go invis and fly off the map or 2 pipes does more damage, I think that the maximum damage shouldnt be buffed, but only the minimum.

People agreeing or disagreeing doesn't matter, most people that disagree with me have awful eplainations and low logical/smart answers, most are fighting to win the debate and not the truth,
What I was refering as "ego" was for the next answers he would provide, as people's ego tend to take over the truth, it was more of a miscommunication that anything else, I shouldnt really have said that but there are way more arguments that I provided, this sounds more like cherry picking, also, I don't talk english perfectly as I didnt learned it from school but by myself.

Admin or not, it doesn't matter, as long as you provide logical/smart explainations, I won't repeat myself, admins tend to have bigger ego because of people constantly agreeing with them, the same syndrome as people contantly agreeing with their girlfriend because they think that she will love him more, I don't know how it works in relationships but I've noticed that with admins it does nothing else that accentuates their ego, that's mostly why I assumed that he's next answers will contain more egocentricsm that actual explainations.
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Anyway, I do believe that this discussion is over, I don't know how to close suggestions, so i'm writing this instead.

edit: forget about it
 
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Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
People agreeing or disagreeing doesn't matter, most people that disagree with me have awful eplainations and low logical/smart answers
Yet hasn't responded to the ones with explanations.
I won't repeat myself, admins tend to have bigger ego because of people constantly agreeing with them
What exactly are people agreeing with me on? I'm genuinely curious about this one, if anything its usually the other way around with people disagreeing with an admin, over something like a ban or something new implemented.
Now you're literally just acting like a clown, that's pathetic, but i'm starting to understand what kind of person you are
Chief, you come into here, give a 2 sentence explanation on why spy and trolldier needs to be buffed, you have 2 admins saying this is wrong, you have 2 different FF2 balancers saying you are wrong, and you have a VSH regular saying you are wrong. At what point do you swallow your pride and realize you aren't always correct? So far the only responses you have given are along the lines of "you aren't smart, I am", or what it feels to be, you're trying to impersonate the person in your profile picture, which is what I personally think is the more accurate statement with all of your comments on psycology over and over. I think I, as well as a few others, are beginning to have an understanding on the type of person you are.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
FF2 and VSH are very similar gamemodes, as such many things are the same such as how to play the classes.


My opinion is based on my experience within the servers, if there is a change within the servers my opinion is also likely to change. Once a person creates an opinion, it usually isn't set in stone. If you believe this is the case, the same can be applied to you.


500 is not low at all. 500 is a decent chunk of health to the hale for a multitude of reasons. With 15 people on the server, backstabs generally do around 750 damage (depending on the bosses health equation). With 10 and under it does do only 500, however, the hales health is already so low even only getting that 500 damage, a decent amount of health is removed.


2 crutches instead of 3 doesn't make it much better, but I'll ignore that for now. As for the soldier set you've mentioned, that is literally the strongest possible soldier set. Since the direct hit can only get crits, taunting to recieve minicrits actually gives full crits. Mantreads are very effective, I understand they were nerfed recently, however they are still VERY strong and are very easy to use to get a market garden (reason why they're called the crutchtreads).


What risk are you talking about? Is it simply because spy and trolldier need to get close to the hale? You have the dead ringer, which gives you a get out of jail free card, as well as the kunai, which on backstab lets you take a free hit. So the risk factor for playing this type of spy is LOW, if anything damage should be reduced for using the dead ringer, not increased. Market gardens do require you to get close to the hale, but a rocket jumping soldier is the MOST mobile class in the entire game. More than a scout, once you get beside the boss you can instantly jump to the other side of the map. Simply market when the hale is distracted, market, then jump away. Not hard to get multiple in a match, 500 damage is more than fine.


By that i meant throwing around insults, such as my ego is overwhelming my opinion, which you've now explained what you specifically meant.
Aight, I didn't wanted to continue this discussion but whatever, I can't sleep because of insomnia so here I am, and you're a clown but you're explanations aren't horrible so I will answer this one.

FF2 and VSH are similar but not as predictable, in VSH every hale does the same amount of damage and since there are less bosses, it's easier to know what are their strength/weakness and also their rage, in FF2 there are way more bosses with different rage and damage, which can be hard to learn, however the concept is the same, I do agree with that.

My opinion is also based on my experience, I used to play VSH really really often, in fact I was rank 1 in 2019, I should have mentioned it before but I just remembered it now, you can probably find proof of it yourself, because i honestly don't know where is the proof, maybe my previous chat ? Idk, anyway.

I'm strictly debating about the minimum damage a backstab can do, I should have mentioned it in the title but I genuinely forgot, anything from 600 to 1500 is balanced.

Why risking yourself trying to trickstab or just backstab hale when he can instantly kill you at that range when you can aim for 2 point blank headshots with the ambassador then pull out your invis watch and go flying off the map, this surely involves more skills that a trickstab (sarcasm).

About trolldier, if hes using the mantreads and sync a mg with a stomp he can do minimum 1524 damage, which is great but hale's melee hit extends to his head like the disciplinary action, which can lead to bad deaths and on servers with few people, hale won't be distracted unless he's clueless.

Spy has nothing, just a backstab then go for trickstabs and only the kunai can make spy tank a hit, kunai isn't a crutch, it's the weapon of choice of spies risking themselves for trickstabs rather that using the big earner, stab once then flew away, the dead ringer is worst that the invis watch in almost every way, with the invis you can get hit once by hale, fly with the knockback to a healthkit, then you're good, with the dead ringer you don't have no second hit, you need to wait the recharge time because at melee range you're dead, especially if hale's ping is high but it's not like playing with 500 ping is even unrecommended, and it's not like ping always favors the attacker, but that's another story.

Spy and trolldier, besides demoknight are the only classes that can do reliable damage with their melee, against a fast boi that can one hit you, they're anything but low risks classes, every other classes can stay at range, alright spy can use the revolver and soldier can use the direct hit but direct hit has a smaller blast radius for rocket jump which makes it slightly less valable with the mg and spy revolver is so damn boring, like yeah, the invis watch/letranger spy that just shoots hale 3 times to have the cloak full again, staying 80% of the game invis is not a crutch but trickstabing with the kunai is ?

I have played on the server as spy and trolldier way more often that most people playing nowdays, definitely more than you, as it's cristal clear that I'm right about it, my explanations are logical and right, maybe not written well, maybe I'm not calm when I'm writing, but I'm right and I'm saying the truth, no matter what people say about me, it will never matter, I don't give up, you guys are lowkey toxic people, rare are the people that can argue without being laughed at as I can see, this won't help other players communicate better on the forums, it doesn't affect me because people that fight for truth are more hated, as hard truths can be really hard to be heard for some.

It might be hard to read it it but you can't do anything but cherry picking on my explainations, see if there's a slight mistake, that's sad, you shouldn't be doing this, hopefully, all of you will gain wisdom, intelligence and heart.

Whatever if you think that 750 is too high for a minimum then 600 should be perfect, I'm just shocked that 2 pipes do more damage that a backstab, 600 isn't even a big difference.

Anyway, I'm really tired so there might be some mistakes like grammar or things that doesn't sound right in english but does in french so go along and cherry pick them, I did my job of staying impartial, fair and true, I edited it so nvm

edit:grammar and corrections
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
The fact you get so hostile is beyond me. He was just asking a question that meant no harm. I play VSH on the daily basis. MG does NOT need a buff. He had already gotten a buff after the manntreads were nerfed. As for Spy, there is no need for a buff either, spy is fine as he is. Hales play as they want, you just have to practice a lot. I main spy on VSH nowadays and I get plenty of damage. Demo is also fine. It’s all about your skills and the gameplay. Your argument is about skill issue, not about MG or stabs “buffs.” At the end of the day, bottiger gets to decide what’s best for his servers, just learn to adapt.
yes you're right I got a little upset for no apparent reason I do agree with that, my bad.

However I still believe that spy need a minimum damage buff, and it's not a skill issue
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
yea once you win as Sonic on godlike then i'll start listening. Spies and Soldiers already do a good chunk of the hales HP by just vibing by them. Add the numbers and you can basicly steam roll through any hale ESPECIALLY with uber. Needless to say based post

-1
on servers with a lot of players yes definitely, but not on servers with a low amounts of people ~9-10