pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
2 pipes of a demoman do more damage that a backstab or a market garden, 500 is too low, at least 750 as a minimum will be greatly better, there was a lot of players playing trolldier and spy not because it was effective but because it was fun, now it's frustrating, i'm not asking a revert, just a slight buff

ps: ignore the downvotes, I have some haters
 
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Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
I assume this suggestion is for VSH, but if memory serves correctly, backstabs and market gardens are based on the hales overall max health for that round. So the more players on the server the more damage and health the hale will have.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
I assume this suggestion is for VSH, but if memory serves correctly, backstabs and market gardens are based on the hales overall max health for that round. So the more players on the server the more damage and health the hale will have.
yes it's indeed true but 500 is too low, pipes aren't affected by hale's hp but 2 pipes do more damage that a backstab or a market garden, I don't think that demoman is op but that spy and trolldier need a buff.

edit: grammar
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
But they only do 500 damage on an almost empty server??
is this supposed to be sarcastic ?

you don't have any arguments, while I have one, 2 direct hit pipes do 600 damage, it doesn't require to be at melee range and it's not hard to hit, spy backstab need to be in the one hit kill range of hale to do 500, same for trolldier, trolldier after a market garden can be killed instantly if hale knows how to read, for 500 damage, take a moment to think, it's really sad that you don't see the problem here, you don't play VSH and even less trolldier or spy, take moment to use your brain, if you still don't understand try to do as much damage as demoman when playing trolldier or spy.
 

Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
Right, so on a server with more than 15 people, it is VERY easy to top score as spy or soldier. Backstabs with that amount of people do anywhere from 1500 damage to 4000 damage (full server on the 4k). A good soldier knows when to strike, the same goes for spy. At this point it just seems like a skill issue. Low server pop just don't play spy, you can still get decent damage as trolldier and it really isn't that hard to get away if you know what you're doing. You are correct as i don't play VSH, but I do frequent quite a bit in ff2, for the most part this specific scenario are very similar. To sum up, if you can't do damage as soldier or spy, don't play them, simple as that.
 

Feral Angel

TF2 Admin
Contributor
is this supposed to be sarcastic ?

you don't have any arguments, while I have one, 2 direct hit pipes do 600 damage, it doesn't require to be at melee range and it's not hard to hit, spy backstab need to be in the one hit kill range of hale to do 500, same for trolldier, trolldier after a market garden can be killed instantly if hale knows how to read, for 500 damage, take a moment to think, it's really sad that you don't see the problem here, you don't play VSH and even less trolldier or spy, take moment to use your brain, if you still don't understand try to do as much damage as demoman when playing trolldier or spy.
The fact you get so hostile is beyond me. He was just asking a question that meant no harm. I play VSH on the daily basis. MG does NOT need a buff. He had already gotten a buff after the manntreads were nerfed. As for Spy, there is no need for a buff either, spy is fine as he is. Hales play as they want, you just have to practice a lot. I main spy on VSH nowadays and I get plenty of damage. Demo is also fine. It’s all about your skills and the gameplay. Your argument is about skill issue, not about MG or stabs “buffs.” At the end of the day, bottiger gets to decide what’s best for his servers, just learn to adapt.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Right, so on a server with more than 15 people, it is VERY easy to top score as spy or soldier. Backstabs with that amount of people do anywhere from 1500 damage to 4000 damage (full server on the 4k). A good soldier knows when to strike, the same goes for spy. At this point it just seems like a skill issue. Low server pop just don't play spy, you can still get decent damage as trolldier and it really isn't that hard to get away if you know what you're doing. You are correct as i don't play VSH, but I do frequent quite a bit in ff2, for the most part this specific scenario are very similar. To sum up, if you can't do damage as soldier or spy, don't play them, simple as that.
I'm frequently in the top 3 of damage dealers, 1500 damage in a full server is fine, I don't have any problem about it, I have a problem with 500 being too low on server with less that 15 players, backstabs dont deal more than 1500 damage, not 4000, I will still play trolldier and spy for fun, I just want the damage to match the effort, you should definitly try both theses classes on less that 15 players, don't let your ego force you to have a negative opinion about it, I'll still understand that you dont want to buff the 500 damage to 750, as everyone can have their opinion, but balance wise, you will be wrong.

Also as a quick note; the crowd doesnt make someone right or wrong, geniuses where hated before being famous for their actions, this has no correlations with the discussion, but I like to share this information.
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
The fact you get so hostile is beyond me. He was just asking a question that meant no harm. I play VSH on the daily basis. MG does NOT need a buff. He had already gotten a buff after the manntreads were nerfed. As for Spy, there is no need for a buff either, spy is fine as he is. Hales play as they want, you just have to practice a lot. I main spy on VSH nowadays and I get plenty of damage. Demo is also fine. It’s all about your skills and the gameplay. Your argument is about skill issue, not about MG or stabs “buffs.” At the end of the day, bottiger gets to decide what’s best for his servers, just learn to adapt.
botiger is the one deciding the balance of his servers, which is normal, I'm not being hostile, just facts are facts, I have so many gameplay recorded that shows my skills with spy and trolldier, or tf2 in general.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Right, so on a server with more than 15 people, it is VERY easy to top score as spy or soldier. Backstabs with that amount of people do anywhere from 1500 damage to 4000 damage (full server on the 4k). A good soldier knows when to strike, the same goes for spy. At this point it just seems like a skill issue. Low server pop just don't play spy, you can still get decent damage as trolldier and it really isn't that hard to get away if you know what you're doing. You are correct as i don't play VSH, but I do frequent quite a bit in ff2, for the most part this specific scenario are very similar. To sum up, if you can't do damage as soldier or spy, don't play them, simple as that.
Don't forget that it's not because you're an admin that you're always right, and some people liking your posts are looking for approval and to appear better socially, not beliving me is your choice, I definitly recomment to learn more about psychology and humans behaviors
 

Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
backstabs dont deal more than 1500 damage, not 4000
Possibly a difference on VSH, but on FF2 its 7% (if i remember correctly) of the hales current health. It quite regularly is WAY above 1500 damage, and I personally have done 4000 on a single stab.

you should definitly try both theses classes on less that 15 players, don't let your ego force you to have a negative opinion about it
Right so, I played ff2 before it became more popular again (Would assume covid caused an increase of players in general). Generally the server wouldn't get above 20 players, and I mainly play spy as well as trolldier. Not sure where this ego you're talking about is coming from, simply stating that spy and soldiers weapons don't need a buff isn't a negative opinion.

I'll still understand that you dont want to buff the 500 damage to 750, as everyone can have their opinion, but balance wise, you will be wrong.
Are you trying to say 750 damage minimum per stab is balanced? Because if so, I have some unfortinate news for you.

I just want the damage to match the effort
If this select quote is the reason the damage should be buffed, then it simply is a skill issue. It really isn't that hard to get a backstab or a market (especially if you're using the crutchtreads). I assume you are a typical triple crutch combo spy, being kunai, dead ringer, and l'tranger. Again as i said before, I mained spy on FF2, using stock. It really is a death sentence as once you get a stab you have nothing but running around in circles hoping to not get hit, yet dispite this there isn't much issue doing quite a large chunk of the hales health.

Reading what you've typed, it seems to me you are unhappy with my opinion, so much so that you will throw dirt into your statements, such as my apparent ego affecting my opinion. I'm unsure as to why you think getting a backstab or market is so diffucult, but with time hopefully you'll get better at the game.
 

Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
I definitly recomment to learn more about psychology and humans behaviors
Funny, considering I'm currently in university involving some classes under this study.

From what I can see, it isn't a "few people liking my comment", I don't think I've seen a single person support you nor do I think the people agreeing with me are doing so just to appear "better socially". There are no brownie points for agreeing with an admin, so no idea where you''re getting this idea from.
 

Doktoberfest

Uncharitable Spy
FF2 Balancer
yea once you win as Sonic on godlike then i'll start listening. Spies and Soldiers already do a good chunk of the hales HP by just vibing by them. Add the numbers and you can basicly steam roll through any hale ESPECIALLY with uber. Needless to say based post

-1
 
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pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Possibly a difference on VSH, but on FF2 its 7% (if i remember correctly) of the hales current health. It quite regularly is WAY above 1500 damage, and I personally have done 4000 on a single stab.


Right so, I played ff2 before it became more popular again (Would assume covid caused an increase of players in general). Generally the server wouldn't get above 20 players, and I mainly play spy as well as trolldier. Not sure where this ego you're talking about is coming from, simply stating that spy and soldiers weapons don't need a buff isn't a negative opinion.


Are you trying to say 750 damage minimum per stab is balanced? Because if so, I have some unfortinate news for you.


If this select quote is the reason the damage should be buffed, then it simply is a skill issue. It really isn't that hard to get a backstab or a market (especially if you're using the crutchtreads). I assume you are a typical triple crutch combo spy, being kunai, dead ringer, and l'tranger. Again as i said before, I mained spy on FF2, using stock. It really is a death sentence as once you get a stab you have nothing but running around in circles hoping to not get hit, yet dispite this there isn't much issue doing quite a large chunk of the hales health.

Reading what you've typed, it seems to me you are unhappy with my opinion, so much so that you will throw dirt into your statements, such as my apparent ego affecting my opinion. I'm unsure as to why you think getting a backstab or market is so diffucult, but with time hopefully you'll get better at the game.
I don't play FF2, I don't know how to balance spy here so I'd rather say nothing about it.

when i was talking about your ego I wasn't talking about your answers but for your future answers as someone with a set opinion is lees likely to change it, that'ss what I was refering at when I was talking about ego. I'm not excellent at communicating, that's my fault.

Yes, I'm saying that 750 damage minimum is balanced, unfortunate news or not, 500 is too low, I'm playing on the vsh eu server for 2 years now, if im writing a post about it, it's because I know what im talking about, I'm kind of a perfectionnist.

It's not a skill issue, I'm not considering myself an expert spy main but far from being a bad one, I have several demos that can prove that for me, I indeed use mostly nowdays the kunai, dead ringer, ambassador set, not the letranger, as for trolldier I use the direct hit, gunboat and market garden, sometimes the ll, mantreads and mg but this set is useless as the mantreads arent as effective than the gunboat.

I am indeed unhappy about your opinion, as I firmly believe that a buff is needed, but as I said, your opinion is your opinion, the problem is balance wise, I already explained what I meant by ego, I don't think that backstabs or market garden are difficult, just that the damage should scale with the risk.

I have no clue what you meant by "so much so that you will throw dirt into your statements", I'm not a native english speaker.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
Funny, considering I'm currently in university involving some classes under this study.

From what I can see, it isn't a "few people liking my comment", I don't think I've seen a single person support you nor do I think the people agreeing with me are doing so just to appear "better socially". There are no brownie points for agreeing with an admin, so no idea where you''re getting this idea from.
Well, indeed, that's interesting, maybe read more about this subject you may have missed something, which is human.

I don't mind people not supporting me nor ageeing with me, people's opinion are not valuable for me, you seems have actually put explainations to your statement, not everytime but sometime, that's the only reason why I'm writing theses.

Also, I'm absolutly not saying that you're a bad professor (as of what I understood, as I said before, I'm not a native english speaker, nor I learned it from school) but it's not because you're a professor that you're right about everything, you're human, you are wrong sometimes, me too.
 

Nicholas771212

TF2 Admin
I don't play FF2, I don't know how to balance spy here so I'd rather say nothing about it.
FF2 and VSH are very similar gamemodes, as such many things are the same such as how to play the classes.

when i was talking about your ego I wasn't talking about your answers but for your future answers as someone with a set opinion is lees likely to change it,
My opinion is based on my experience within the servers, if there is a change within the servers my opinion is also likely to change. Once a person creates an opinion, it usually isn't set in stone. If you believe this is the case, the same can be applied to you.

Yes, I'm saying that 750 damage minimum is balanced, unfortunate news or not, 500 is too low, I'm playing on the vsh eu server for 2 years now, if im writing a post about it, it's because I know what im talking about, I'm kind of a perfectionnist.
500 is not low at all. 500 is a decent chunk of health to the hale for a multitude of reasons. With 15 people on the server, backstabs generally do around 750 damage (depending on the bosses health equation). With 10 and under it does do only 500, however, the hales health is already so low even only getting that 500 damage, a decent amount of health is removed.

I indeed use mostly nowdays the kunai, dead ringer, ambassador set, not the letranger, as for trolldier I use the direct hit, gunboat and market garden, sometimes the ll, mantreads and mg but this set is useless as the mantreads arent as effective than the gunboat.
2 crutches instead of 3 doesn't make it much better, but I'll ignore that for now. As for the soldier set you've mentioned, that is literally the strongest possible soldier set. Since the direct hit can only get crits, taunting to recieve minicrits actually gives full crits. Mantreads are very effective, I understand they were nerfed recently, however they are still VERY strong and are very easy to use to get a market garden (reason why they're called the crutchtreads).

he problem is balance wise, I already explained what I meant by ego, I don't think that backstabs or market garden are difficult, just that the damage should scale with the risk.
What risk are you talking about? Is it simply because spy and trolldier need to get close to the hale? You have the dead ringer, which gives you a get out of jail free card, as well as the kunai, which on backstab lets you take a free hit. So the risk factor for playing this type of spy is LOW, if anything damage should be reduced for using the dead ringer, not increased. Market gardens do require you to get close to the hale, but a rocket jumping soldier is the MOST mobile class in the entire game. More than a scout, once you get beside the boss you can instantly jump to the other side of the map. Simply market when the hale is distracted, market, then jump away. Not hard to get multiple in a match, 500 damage is more than fine.

I have no clue what you meant by "so much so that you will throw dirt into your statements", I'm not a native english speaker.
By that i meant throwing around insults, such as my ego is overwhelming my opinion, which you've now explained what you specifically meant.
 

pax

Sufficiently Lethal Scout
FF2 and VSH are very similar gamemodes, as such many things are the same such as how to play the classes.


My opinion is based on my experience within the servers, if there is a change within the servers my opinion is also likely to change. Once a person creates an opinion, it usually isn't set in stone. If you believe this is the case, the same can be applied to you.


500 is not low at all. 500 is a decent chunk of health to the hale for a multitude of reasons. With 15 people on the server, backstabs generally do around 750 damage (depending on the bosses health equation). With 10 and under it does do only 500, however, the hales health is already so low even only getting that 500 damage, a decent amount of health is removed.


2 crutches instead of 3 doesn't make it much better, but I'll ignore that for now. As for the soldier set you've mentioned, that is literally the strongest possible soldier set. Since the direct hit can only get crits, taunting to recieve minicrits actually gives full crits. Mantreads are very effective, I understand they were nerfed recently, however they are still VERY strong and are very easy to use to get a market garden (reason why they're called the crutchtreads).


What risk are you talking about? Is it simply because spy and trolldier need to get close to the hale? You have the dead ringer, which gives you a get out of jail free card, as well as the kunai, which on backstab lets you take a free hit. So the risk factor for playing this type of spy is LOW, if anything damage should be reduced for using the dead ringer, not increased. Market gardens do require you to get close to the hale, but a rocket jumping soldier is the MOST mobile class in the entire game. More than a scout, once you get beside the boss you can instantly jump to the other side of the map. Simply market when the hale is distracted, market, then jump away. Not hard to get multiple in a match, 500 damage is more than fine.


By that i meant throwing around insults, such as my ego is overwhelming my opinion, which you've now explained what you specifically meant.
I'm honestly too lazy to continue with my explanations, and you seem to not want to change your opinion about the buff, I'll probably add them later on but from now I can only recommend you to play VSH as spy and trolldier.