Blade D_Hero

Moderator
Contributor
Currently, our trade servers could use a bit of improvement. Most of the time when the server is full, you can safely say that not even 1/2 of the server occupants are interested in trading, and instead treat the map like a deathmatch arena. People on mic talk about things that are not even remotely about trading, and the atmosphere is very chaotic, to say the least. After some discussion, here are a few new rules I think should be implemented in order to improve the current state of our trade servers.

1.) Auto-kick both F2Ps and people who have scammer tags. While these people are kicked once the server starts nearing maximum capacity, there's basically no reason to let either of them in at all on our trade servers. F2Ps can't trade, and scammers should not take the place of traders who have not violated trading rules.

2.) No mic spam should be allowed whatsoever. While this can be mitigated with a client mute, I have seen that people who micspam on trade alternate between playing music and actually using the mic to trade, so client muting is less effective if you're trying to make a trade. We should have a zero tolerance policy regarding any form of micspam on trade, with standard silences being issued for rulebreakers.

3.) On the topic of mics, voice communication should have trading as a priority. People go on tangents all the time, and while we shouldn't have a zero tolerance policy on this specific issue because we'd probably look like fascists, if someone is just using the mic to talk about his/her personal life and interrupting others that are actually trying to advertise, that should not be accepted. If no trade communication is occurring over voice, then people should have free reign over the mic.

4.) A chat cooldown of about 5 seconds should be applied. If you've ever frequented a trade server, you most likely have seen someone consistently advertising their own trades without letting anyone else get a word in edgewise. Unusual trading communities I used to frequent (all of which filled up pretty well during peak periods) had chat cool downs of around ten seconds, but I feel like this is too much. 5 seconds is a good amount of time to pass between consecutive messages from the same player.

While these may not be perfect solutions to some of the problems on trade, they're pretty fair and allow for a better quality of life on the servers for people who actually want to trade.
 
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Sargent¥

Australian Skial God
Contributor
+1 I never frequented the trade servers because they were always so full that I assumed they were handling themselves. Even after visiting them in the afternoon, there wouldn't be much micspam or stuff like that. It was the night I vusited them that that opinion changed. Micspam, Screaming, Vote abuse, it was all wrong and if we keep letting that happen, our trade servers are going to become unofficial "LazyPurple fun servers" in that sense
 

Pedro the fabulous

Totally Ordinary Human
Contributor
Master Mapper
2.) No mic spam should be allowed whatsoever. While this can be mitigated with a client mute, I have seen that people who micspam on trade alternate between playing music and actually using the mic to trade, so client muting is less effective if you're trying to make a trade. We should have a zero tolerance policy regarding any form of micspam on trade, with standard silences being issued for rulebreakers.
So no music is what you're suggesting, and I like this a lot.

+1 to everything except 3) which I think might not be the best idea. Could be left as silence if it's too much and interfering with traders.

I think we should also allow free to plays to enter anyway, but definitely don't allow scammers. It helps seed the server earlier on.
 
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shoooooooooooooooo

Australian Skial God
Contributor
i dont think voice communication should be limited to trade only. when i go on there i have conversations with people over the mic and hardly hear anyone doing any business over it. even see some people speak through the mic, post whatever they want to trade into chat, then continue talking.
 

Luke

Legendary Skial King
Contributor
+1 for all but #3

If people want to advertise trades, people not trading shouldn't talk over them.
But people who aren't interupting anyone shouldn't be punished for simply talking.
 

Sargent¥

Australian Skial God
Contributor
I'm going to have to agree with @shoo here, I don't think it should be limited to just trading but trading should take priority.
 

Blade D_Hero

Moderator
Contributor
I think we should also allow free to plays to enter anyway, but definitely don't allow scammers. It helps seed the server earlier on.

I don't think Trade needs help filling up. Looking at the stats page (at least the US trade servers), the servers are almost always over 14+ people, with the biggest downtime occurring between 2-6 am, cuz everyone's asleep. F2Ps are basically just taking a slot from another player that could actually trade.

+1 for all but #3

If people want to advertise trades, people not trading shouldn't talk over them.
But people who aren't interupting anyone shouldn't be punished for simply talking.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and edit that for #3.
 

Pedro the fabulous

Totally Ordinary Human
Contributor
Master Mapper
I don't think Trade needs help filling up. Looking at the stats page (at least the US trade servers), the servers are almost always over 14+ people, with the biggest downtime occurring between 2-6 am, cuz everyone's asleep. F2Ps are basically just taking a slot from another player that could actually trade.



Yeah, I'll go ahead and edit that for #3.
You can't take a slot from another player if the server isn't full, and when it starts filling they get kicked
 

Blade D_Hero

Moderator
Contributor
You can't take a slot from another player if the server isn't full, and when it starts filling they get kicked

Why even have them though aside from seeding? I wonder my response weird but I meant to say regular players that can ACTUALLY trade seed the servers too we wouldn't be losing out on much
 

KinCryos

TF2 Admin
Contributor
Mapper
regarding #1: the F2P trading restriction is only limited to items originating from their account (e.g. item drops). not only can items be given to them via. trade, those same items can be traded again to others. if a F2P'er was given a bunch of weapons, they could later trade them to a scrapbanker for tradable metal, and later trade that metal for a cheap cosmetic. if a F2P'er happens to win a raffle for an Unusual, that Unusual wouldn't become locked to his account once given.

tl;dr, if we were to auto-kick F2P'ers, we'd have to verify that they have absolutely no tradable items. we'd actually have better justification to auto-kick any account with private inventories
 

BBQ Prophet

Rage-Inducing Forum Troll
These are understandable suggestions, but the problem lies in Skial's actual policy regarding what Admins do. Because players are essentially on their own with the Rules and the Report features and because 24/7 supervisory whip-cracking is not possible nor necessary, not only would these suggestions unnecessarily dilute and clutter the Rules, they would, at best, generate extraneous Reports with too much subjective play to do any worthwhile good for the server. I believe the ultimate factor in considering Rules changes should be the never-been-to-Skial, total noobs' ability to understand, follow and communicate them to others.
The following are my specific retorts to your listed points:

1) Seeds are crucial to server population and auto-kicking like you suggest would have a negative impact. F2P's and Scammers are identified plainly already so it's not worth losing the ad views or seeds. No one should, or even reasonably could, be required to trade just because it's a Trade server; F2p, tagged Scammer, regular player, Admin or otherwise.

2) The vote and report systems in conjunction with client mute are at least as effective in maintaining player happiness as a single, or even multiple human Admins, who can't be there all the time. From personal experience, I'd say ~95% of sounds played through voice are, at minimum, technically spam due to their low fidelity, meaning changing the rule would have no effect, and the remaining ~5% (high-fidelity music) would, and should, be up to a vote if players consider it disruptive. Spam is already against the Rules [on all servers]. Assuming that the few players who do read the Rules and follow them won't be confused by a Trade policy that contradicts global policy is short-sighted. Meaning if you think music shouldn't be allowed on Skial, the Suggestion shouldn't be for just Trade Server Rules.

3) You're correct. Trading should take priority when trading is booming. However, it's just another complication to the Rules and it's not reasonably enforceable nor worthwhile to make it so. Again, no one should, or even reasonably could, be required to trade just because it's a Trade server.

4) Assuming that everyone using chat is only posting trade ads is not realistic whatsoever. You're talking about disrupting conversations [trade and otherwise] and possibly even disrupting ability usage like !shop and !donor, etc. Spamming is spamming, which is already against the Rules.
 

Tyknighter

Positively Inhumane Poster
+1 to everything but rule 3 and I agree with what Kingcryos said if a F2P wins some things and crafts stuff they can trade it.
 

Bottiger

Administrator
We can do a chat cooldown and no micspam rule, but there's no point in kicking people when the server isn't full. They are helping the server even if they don't trade, and when the server fills they get kicked.
 

Jermaphobe

Moderator
Contributor
Legendary Mapper
Regarding the first suggestion. Yes, lets kick free to play players who are new to the game and make them avoid Skial and TF2 altogether (-1)

Everything else, +1

 

Sargent¥

Australian Skial God
Contributor
We can do a chat cooldown and no micspam rule, but there's no point in kicking people when the server isn't full. They are helping the server even if they don't trade, and when the server fills they get kicked.
I can see past allowing F2Ps in but as a partner community, we really shouldn't be allowing scammers to be given the potential to trade and roam about in our trade servers.
 

BBQ Prophet

Rage-Inducing Forum Troll
I don't think tagged scammers are too dangerous to watch ads and seed, plus they're clearly identified by SteamRep's plugin upon joining; said plugin offers the options to add "[SCAMMER]" to the name, kick or ban and I think it's fair to assume the former was chosen intentionally.

Making money from Scammers' watching ads is ethically questionable, if "community fraud prevention" means "in-crowd, frontier-judicial hair splitting and unfounded assumptions" as I've been shown is entirely possible.